Official Luthiers Forum!

When I see the work of Luthiers like Sylvan, Bill Moll, and a handful of others on this forum it inspires me. These guys are at the top of their game and I feel priveledged to have them show their tricks and techniques. The bar they set is high and I look at that level as my goal...whether I can ever achieve it or not. This is not graded "on the curve". The record for the 100 meter dash is absolute...so should be our opinion of excellence in Luthiery.

In my opinion, if they consider themselves Luthiers or even Master Luthiers, then I know what the standard should be. I'll never refer to myself as a luthier unless or until I can achieve that level of expertise. Until then, I'm a guitarmaker-in-training. That's my personal opinion about how we should self-assess ourselves...others have a right to set their personal standards as they look through their own eyes.

At the same time, Lance's point is well taken. His customers define his value by the opinion they have of his work. Having known Lance, and seen his work, that opinion is deservedly high.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=Don Williams]
1.)I would agree that to call oneself a Luthier, you really need to know everything about the craft, soup to nuts. No, you don't need to learn to make tuners or celluloid bindings.

2.)There is nothing wrong with subbing out work, as long as you control the product.
They could easily make them by hand, but then would starve trying to make a living.
.[/QUOTE]

1.) Don, you just made my point, to (you) you don't have to make tuners or bindings. Because to (you) that is a skill set that is not required to qualify to be called a "luthier"
At the Asia Symposium this summer I seen MANY guitars made by "luthiers" but only saw ONE luthier that made his own tuners (wood peg tuners aside). Does this person qualify for a higher ranking? Or is that only a skill set that he/she requires of them selves.

2.) Again, this is your opinion, im sure there are "luthiers" out there that think its a travesty to sub out ANY part. Including fret wire, tuners, bindings etc.

I'm not trying to bust your chops at all on this, but rather saying that once again, your opinion may not be the same as the next guy or gals. And that there seem to be NO right answer here.



By the way, Webster's says this

luthier

n : a craftsman who makes stringed instruments (as lutes or guitars or violins)

One that makes or repairs stringed instruments, such as violins

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

You get up on the wrong side of the bed or somethin?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Your Grumpiness,

1. Nobody expects anyone to make parts that are standard purchased parts for OEM instruments. Martin never made their tuners, that I'm aware of, so that's perfectly acceptable.

2. There are many levels of insanity.... in these cases, I highly suspect the presence of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. It's not even reasonable to think that way.Don Williams38769.5131597222

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

The number of people obsessing over the semantics of 'luthier' amazes me.
This isn't the Middle Ages, and no guild or government controls the use of
the word. Call yourself whatever honorific title you like.

Wasn't there some guy calling himself Maestro something with a line of
guitar-like things? Anyone care to argue over who can call himself
"Maestro?" How about "El Maestro Supremo?"

My label reads "guitarmaker." One of my mentors (and one of the best
craftsmen I've ever known) hated the word 'luthier'--thought it was a bunch
of pretentious crapola--and I've never quite gotten over that.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I'm with Lance and John. Working on guitar is fun and a great thing to do for work, but it's also what pays for the food in the house. So a builder should do whatever he or she needs to do to make the best guitar he can and get it out to the buyer. It's the builders call on how he or she makes that happen. And if the buyer loves the guitar then they made the right call, whatever the call may be. Subs or no subs.

I uses the term luthier much the same way that I use the term golfer. When I'm asked if I'm a luthier, (Which comes up primarily because of all the luthiery related Tee shirts I have), I answer "Yes, but I'm a hobbiest". This is much like I answer if I'm a golfer. "Yes, but I've never shot below 100). I don't think that I'm claiming anything other than what I am.

We do not have a sanctioning body with the right to award the title luthier. If we did, I wouldn't use the term unless I had a right to it. For example, my father ran the auditing department at General Motors Truck and Coach. But if you asked him if he was an accountant he would answer that technically he was a book keeper since he wasn't a CPA.Mike Mahar38769.6397569444

I also usually stay out of these kind of discussions. I have gone to school to learn this craft, built 13 guitars after that with the 14th on the bench. I called myself a luthier until I went to a shop where there were real luthiers. These guys could take any wood from raw billits(sp)and split brace material and build a guitar from start to finish(and I mean finsih) and be able to send it to the customer. They didn't as this shop folks worked production, but if it had come to be required they could have done it. Most of them had been in the shop starting as an apprentice and working for 4-6 years, and the shop sending out 400 guitars a year, one can see they did alot of building. If someone went down in an area another could step in and no problems or slow downs. I have had to go to others (John Maye for one) to get better at necks. I thought of buying pre made necks from the known suppliers, but knew to be a good builder I needed to learn to make them and do them well. The time in the big shop gave me even more knowledge. No I don't make kerfing, tuners andl all of those things and probably never will, but I know how to use them, I guess I could farm that out. I know how to get rough brace stock and find the grain orientation and make braces, I could farm that out. I could buy 10 kits with everything joined, rosette put in, braces already cut and ready to glue, neck made, finger board made, and all of those things, put them together, sell them with customer knowledge of how they were done and call myself a guitar builder, or learn to do that myself. I don't know, which one is a builder as what we call luthier. What would happen to the kit builder if all the kits ran out? Kits can be good and a way to start, but putting them together doesn't make one a guitar builder/ luthier whatever title one wants to note. Doing some things different say bolt on necks to dovetail isn't the issue, the issue is can one do one or both of those things. If one can they are more the builder than one who gets that farmed out or pre made. That is what I think and know Slyvan and Bill are getting at. Health and zoning laws and other issues can be valid reasons for farming that out. But those who have spoken to those issues know how to do it and well. Economics can be valid reason shops that do many guitars a year farm out some things, but the shop I am in now and in the past can and still know how to make and do the things farmed out. Am I a luthier? Don't know, I am still in my opinion a luthier apprentice. I am in a shop now in that capacity, but with freedom to make my own stuff. I am now learning archtop building as that is this shops main focus. What a change in thought process. I will as the LUTHIER who I work for has mentioned he will continue to make mistakes at times, and day we can't learn something new, will be the day the chisels are put away forever. I can do some of the work and first day he had me carve the tops of two expensive guitars I had butterflys in my gut, but I now feel better for the experience. His and my expectations are that in time, I can do any and all of the process of the building from start to finish. Necks, fingerboards, braces whatever. I can then farm out stuff if I get to where it is economical to do so, my health or zoning or other law prohibit some stuff. That is many guitars from now. I was not given the ability to have built 5 guitars and 4 of them commissions, or for that matter 13 and 12 of them commissions, if I worked for money that is. I am grateful that I have the client base I have, and the ability to work for a man and true luthier who can and does make a living at this craft.   I would just encourage all to go through the whole process of the building in any manner you can. No that doesn't mean tuners, and those type of things and I think that argument is false anyway, we all pretty much know what is meant by the whole process. If you have done that and been there and more than just a few, your in my opinion a luthier. If not and just putting together bought parts and kits then sending out the glue up, your not there yet, BUT YOU CAN BE AND I FOR ONE HOPE YOU GO THERE AND DO IT. Personally, I feel I again am not a true luthier, but getting there, so my thoughts are probably not worth to much, but one time felt like chimming in.

Wow, this has all been very interesting! I think the craft is a great adventure. Some things I do well and others not so well. That fact lets me know what I need to continue to work on which keeps my old mind moving. I like the term Guitarmaker, since very few folks in Texas no what or how to spell Luthier, saves time not having to explain. I like the old style look, and plan on never using Nitro finish or a spray rig for that matter, but I'm going to keep working with my hands, brushes and cotton pads and enjoy myself and my music.

ok i'm a guitar maker adventurer explorer!

I spray Nitro all the time. If you want a price, call me.

Rick
732-232-9053
http://www.GuitarGuruLLC.com

hey rick just FYI (you probably already knew, but makes me wonder why
you posted it in the first place) your website has no content...just a
domain parking page...

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com