Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=charliewood] Cant wait to get sgtarted but it like a full time job
just getting prepared!...[/QUOTE]

True, but a whole lot more fun!

_________________
now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

[QUOTE=Billy T] I ran a CNC built in the 60's, does that count? [/QUOTE]
Did you have to crank a handle to start it?

Hang in there Charlie, it takes a bit of time to set up shop for the first but you'll be rewarded fully for your patience, i promise!

[QUOTE=CarltonM]

The MOST important tool for a beginner, though (and the hardest to get),
is patience! I really mean that, and I'm speaking from experience here. If
you can adopt an attitude of "it doesn't have to be finished today," and,
"right is better than fast," you'll be way ahead of the game! Good luck,
my friend![/QUOTE]

Patience...and a sense of humour. The latter very useful when youve just
glued your heel block on top of the neck and thats shortly after youve
routed a rosette channel right through a AAA spruce soundboard.

[QUOTE=kiwigeo]Patience...and a sense of humour. The latter very useful when youve just
glued your heel block on top of the neck and thats shortly after youve
routed a rosette channel right through a AAA spruce soundboard.

[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah! Now, it takes a very creative mind to make mistakes like that! If you'd sent it through Alice's mirror, it would have been just right.

[QUOTE=larkim]
Sandervik/Bacho do a good'n and the most EXCELLENT burnisher is free, just ask an engine re-conditioner for an old cylinder head valve stem from his scrap bin and your in business.



Scrapers = Big back ache, least heart ache.

Cheers

Kim[/QUOTE]
Larkin...just a safety note with using a valve stem. Air cooled engines like VW and Porsche contain valves that are sodium filled. Never use these for a punch or hammer on them !! They can and have been known to explode causing severe accidents. You can lose a hand very easily.Brazilwood38823.8732638889

My first thought on this idea of using old school methods was to say p'shaw. There seems to be an implied assumption that the way we do things today is inherently inferior to the way they used to do it. This seems to be a blanket statement regardless of the technique or method. I'm not accusing any of the posters here of saying that but it is a sentiment that hear from time to time. I can't believe that it is true that the old way are always better. It has been said that it is unlikly that those who came before us could not have all been fools and I think that is true. I also believe that everybody doing things today can't be fools either. My building phylosophy is the use the technique that works best for me. Sometimes that's an old way and sometimes it's a new way.

HOWEVER, I don't want to belittle people like Colin who chooses to make his lutes using only techniques that were in use when lutes were originally built. I look at efforts like his as a form of artistic expression. For example, a poet will decide to write a Sonnet or a Haiku and artificially limit themselve to following that form. Forcing themselves to follow the rules of the form is a part of the artistic process. If they break the form, it is still poetry and it is still art, but it is not a sonnet.

So, consider why you want to use old methods. If it is just to save money, it might not work. Good chisels and planes are not cheap and cheap chisels and planes are not good. You have to know what you're doing to find gold at yard sales. I know that I don't so I have to rely on dealers and therefore pay for that. If, on the other hand, you want to use old methods because it is the way you wish to express yourself, than go for it and have fun.

And my wife calls ME a know it all

Great bit of advice Jeff, did not know that one. I will be sure to stick with good'ol petrol burning water cooled V8 valves in the future and when passing on this gem of a tool, I will be sure to add your safety warning.

EDIT: Sorry Mike I should have selected "Reply" when answering Jeff. But I am with you, old school is best only when it IS actually best.

Cheers

Kimlarkim38823.9274305556

[QUOTE=Mike Mahar]

HOWEVER, I don't want to belittle people like Colin who chooses to make his lutes using only techniques that were in use when lutes were originally built. I look at efforts like his as a form of artistic expression. For example, a poet will decide to write a Sonnet or a Haiku and artificially limit themselve to following that form. Forcing themselves to follow the rules of the form is a part of the artistic process. If they break the form, it is still poetry and it is still art, but it is not a sonnet.

[/QUOTE]

Mike, that's right the lutes I make are more of an artistic expression. I have also done repairs on original historic lutes and using power tools on them just doesn't seem right somehow.

For my guitars however, I let the electricity rip! OK I don't use a thickness sander, but I do use a Wagner and I would be a lost soul without my table router, and although I can cut the binding channel with a gramil and chisel I actually use a Dewalt laminate trimmer! My point was that you don't have to buy every last item on Grizzly's books to build with, all the steps are possible with hand tools and that for the beginner the investment needn't be too daunting. Look at Cumpiano and even at Stew Mac kit building instructions, they will show what you can get away with.

Colin

By the way I do write Haiku as well, and have Basho's "on love and Barley" on my desk right now!

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

The price of tools, even seemingly simple ones in luthier supply houses and woodworking stores is daunting. It seems to be something of a racket.
    One if not the biggest challenges I have found in building my first guitar is figuring inexpensive ways to make what I need. One thing I discovered for instance was using a package of gardening bamboo for go bar sticks. I think it cost less than four dollars. Check out the price at Stew Macs. Every little bit helps so I can save to buy what I really can't make--like nice files, or a straight edge.
    I bought a delapidated sears 14 inch band saw at a garage sale for 40 bucks and fixed it up too. That was lucky.
   I also made my own radius dish with a set of Martin braces as reference, out of plywood epoxy, and formica. It came out almost perfect (to within a 64th), but it took some time (2 days).
    Instead of buying radius sanding blocks for a neck I fretted, I used a guitar I own, and after tracing its finger board curve, cut an old scraper to it. It worked perfectly. An exacto saw was fine for fret slots.
   Blind faith and perseverence are also my most important tools now. Even failure is valuable. I'm definitely learning why nice guitars are so expensive. They are actually cheap considering the labor involved.

_________________
"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

[QUOTE=larkim] And my wife calls ME a know it all
Kim[/QUOTE]

Didn't mean to come off as a know it all. Just something I've seen happen in my time as a mechanic in the US Air Force.

[QUOTE=Brazilwood] [QUOTE=larkim] And my wife calls ME a know it all
Kim[/QUOTE]

Didn't mean to come off as a know it all. Just something I've seen happen in my time as a mechanic in the US Air Force.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Brazilwood, I did not mean to offend or suggest any negative upon your character, it was simply my bad choice of words is all. You did not come across as a "know it all" and I apologise.

I was just surprised because I had never heard of sodium filled valves exploding until you mentioned it. My off the cuff, tongue in cheek remark was intended more as a compliment for your broader understanding of mechanics than my own rather than any kind of insult.

I seriously do appreciate your safety warning and meant what I said about passing it on to others in the future.

Thanks

Kim

[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] My first thought on this idea of using old school methods was to say p'shaw. There seems to be an implied assumption that the way we do things today is inherently inferior to the way they used to do it. This seems to be a blanket statement regardless of the technique or method. I'm not accusing any of the posters here of saying that but it is a sentiment that hear from time to time. I can't believe that it is true that the old way are always better. It has been said that it is unlikly that those who came before us could not have all been fools and I think that is true. I also believe that everybody doing things today can't be fools either. My building phylosophy is the use the technique that works best for me. Sometimes that's an old way and sometimes it's a new way.

HOWEVER, I don't want to belittle people like Colin who chooses to make his lutes using only techniques that were in use when lutes were originally built. I look at efforts like his as a form of artistic expression. For example, a poet will decide to write a Sonnet or a Haiku and artificially limit themselve to following that form. Forcing themselves to follow the rules of the form is a part of the artistic process. If they break the form, it is still poetry and it is still art, but it is not a sonnet.

So, consider why you want to use old methods. If it is just to save money, it might not work. Good chisels and planes are not cheap and cheap chisels and planes are not good. You have to know what you're doing to find gold at yard sales. I know that I don't so I have to rely on dealers and therefore pay for that. If, on the other hand, you want to use old methods because it is the way you wish to express yourself, than go for it and have fun.

[/QUOTE]


While the reason I am doing this/ put this question tothe members here, is to
save enough money
and have enough tools to begin
and succesfully complete sooner on my #1
which quite frankly Im chomping at the bit to do.
There is no sense in begining until I have what I need.
But honestly as someone who used to carve, I know for a fact that someone who spends time with the wood, smells and tastes it and gets his blood and sweat into it ends up knowing alot about the wood in the end.
I agree that as good or better job can be done on a guitar by someone just starting, with power tools, and Im all for them.
I guess what Im saying is in many respects they arent always necessary, and If I can get away with doing something low tech and cheaply or home built and thus get into this project sooner - I want to get it started.
But craftsmanship is a different matter and probably too many varying opinions from one end of the spectrum to the other exist here for me to want to get into that one way or the other. And I will save the
" the same job being done by hand or with powertools /higher degree of craftsmanship argument "
for someone else to start - someone who really cares about that - All I care about is getting started on my project at the moment and setting up my microshop is the first step.
Cheers
Charliewood
PS great tips though guys thanks!

[QUOTE=nickton] The price of tools, even seemingly simple ones in luthier supply houses and woodworking stores is daunting. It seems to be something of a racket.
    One if not the biggest challenges I have found in building my first guitar is figuring inexpensive ways to make what I need. One thing I discovered for instance was using a package of gardening bamboo for go bar sticks. I think it cost less than four dollars. Check out the price at Stew Macs. Every little bit helps so I can save to buy what I really can't make--like nice files, or a straight edge.
    I bought a delapidated sears 14 inch band saw at a garage sale for 40 bucks and fixed it up too. That was lucky.
   I also made my own radius dish with a set of Martin braces as reference, out of plywood epoxy, and formica. It came out almost perfect (to within a 64th), but it took some time (2 days).
    Instead of buying radius sanding blocks for a neck I fretted, I used a guitar I own, and after tracing its finger board curve, cut an old scraper to it. It worked perfectly. An exacto saw was fine for fret slots.
   Blind faith and perseverence are also my most important tools now. Even failure is valuable. I'm definitely learning why nice guitars are so expensive. They are actually cheap considering the labor involved.[/QUOTE]

Nicholas, do i ever agree with you on everything here, i also want to thank you for the good tips you shared with us !

Serge