Official Luthiers Forum!

The other day, a friend came over with a guitar he'd made under George Morris' tutelage (vermontinstruments.com). It was a medium sized guitar, sort of jumbo-ish, but not as big as a true jumbo, with a spruce top and cherry back and sides. Peering inside, the first thing that struck me was the unusual back bracing. There was a huge, fat brace running down the middle where you'd expect to see just a back seam reinforcement. It was roughly an inch wide and 5/8" thick. Otherwise, it was ladder braced, and these braces were big, too (not huge, but big). This must have been, by comparison to most guitars, an extremely rigid back.

The top is braced with a double X; tall, narrow braces; not scalloped, but basically tapered from the middle out to the edges.

The guitar sounded great. Really huge, expansive, three dimensional, full-spectrum sound. Well balanced and very harmonically rich. We compared it to two of my own, and, though we both really like the sound of each of mine, the EXPANSIVENESS of his guitar's sound was very striking by comparison. There's a whole galaxy inside the sound of this guitar. It was really thrilling to play it. The only thing I didn't like so much about it was that it sounded tubby around the low G note - but lots of guitars sound that way to my ear.

It was very interesting to me that a guitar made this way - the cherry, the double X braced top, and especially the massively braced back - would sound so great.     

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Yes, I'm a firm believer in the 'more than one way to skin a cat' theory. Who's to say what sounds better. You just won't know until you try. Right?

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Todd, i'm not surprised at all!!!!!

Though my first attempt was ugly as sin, my aim at a loud soundbox paid off, my bracing and kerfed lining and also the blocks were overkill but it did the job, i'm no expert on descibing the sound but it sounds great and rich when i can tune it 4-40 so to speak.

I'm really curious about your friend's instrument, could it be possible to have a sound file of it?

Thanks for sharing!

Serge

I recently met someone who studied there...and I'm not sure I can agree with some of the philosophies. This person now believes that an ultra-thin top is the way to go. Not sure I can go along with that. If anything, I'm leaning toward making tops thicker, not thinner.
I guess there may be many roads to the same town...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

This sounds similar to what Brad Nickerson was doing with the backs
of his flat top guitars. He used a wide cedar strip down the centers
seam. Maybe 1.5"-2". He liked the sound of slightly stiffer back. His
guitars are very popular among modern jazz and fingerstyle players.
They have a very clear and focused sound, but not as much boom
and volume as a big Martin.

I'm with you Don. I'm building my tops thicker and my backs thinner
these days. Around 1.20-1.30 for tops and .085-.095 for backs.

Louis

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- Louis Freilicher

Oh No! Not another learning experience!

Todd
did you take any picts???
Andy

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

[QUOTE=Louis4052] This sounds similar to what Brad Nickerson was doing with the backs
of his flat top guitars. He used a wide cedar strip down the centers
seam. Maybe 1.5"-2". He liked the sound of slightly stiffer back. His
guitars are very popular among modern jazz and fingerstyle players.
They have a very clear and focused sound, but not as much boom
and volume as a big Martin. Louis[/QUOTE]

Yep, and he's still doing it on flattop guitars. And it's hard to argue with his tone.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Todd, sounds like his bracing was parabolic?

Don, I didn't ask my friend how thick the top is. I'll ask him - I'd like to know that, too.

Louis, I might have guessed that a guitar with a back like this - esp made of cherry, and esp with a double X braced top as well - would have a sound much like you describe: clear, focused, not so much boom and volume. That was partly why I was somewhat surprised by the sound of this guitar. While I wouldn't describe it as very "boomy" per se, it certainly had plenty of volume and plenty of bass. I definitely would not call it "focused", but I would not say it lacked clarity, either. It just sounded huge, expansive (almost like it had some delay or reverb on it), very harmonically rich (but not to the point of sounding like mush at all) and balanced (in the sense of having a real full-spectrum sound, not lacking at all in any range of the frequency spectrum) - those are the best words I can seem to come up with. Its sound just seemed to exist in and fill a vast space. This was true whether hearing it from the player's perspective, or from out front. I might have expected a guitar with such a massively braced back to project forward really well, but perhaps not give so much sound to the player. Wrong again.

Andy, I didn't take any pictures. My friend is the first to admit that his craftmanship has a long way to go; the sound of this guitar is its strength. And I don't have the hardware or the know-how to create a sound file or anything - plus, IMHO, you have to hear an instrument in person to get any real sense of what it sounds like.

Serge, as loosely as we use the term "parabolic" on this forum, I would say that you could describe the top bracing as roughly parabolic, yes. Not scalloped at all.

Maybe the sound I heard has little to do with the back bracing. Maybe he just happened to hit it right on with the top thicknessing and bracing and just made that soundboard really come alive.    

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks Todd, i have a feeling this fellow will be heard of in the future, it could be all of the ingredients that you mentionned that once combined with his love and passion for his new found addiction that generated that sound!

Serge