Official Luthiers Forum!

No darts coming from my direction, from a looks standpoint I agree with you, I see alot of other woods available at reasonable prices with similar (maybe not exact) tonal characteristics that look alot better than what I generally see.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Michael- I generally agree w/ you re BZ Rosewood pricing
v quality- but often builders are buying it only because
(some) buyers demand it. I do think that for classical
guitars BZ Rosewood offers a sound that's difficult to get
from another wood. Whether that sound is *better* is in the
ear of the beholder..   Carey

[QUOTE=highdrawlicks]

And one more thing. Does anyone else out there think that Martin's one millionth guitar looks like a giant pimp's ukelele?

[/QUOTE]

   I didn't know anything about that guitar untill I googled it about a minute ago... I'm still LMAO... A pimp's uke indeed!

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Carey, good points

Mike
White Oak, Texas

It's simply the law of suppy and demand at work. As scarcity increases and quality decreases, as long as the demand continues, the prices will climb.

I wonder how many luthiers out there buy older guitars with what is by today's standards very high grade BZ, just to salvage the wood and use it in a current build?

I've never thought about doing that with guitars, but once several years ago, I saw an old upright grand piano made out of solid BZ -- had to be over a hundred years old -- and I would have bought it just for the wood if I would have had the cash for it at the time. I'll bet I'm not the only luthier who keeps his eyes open for tables and such made from exotic hardwoods when I go to estate sales and the like.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

Our esteemed colleague Mr. Woolson said it best on his website: Check Paul's wise comments under the heading Backs and Sides, Brazilian Rosewood

I see one luthier on Allied's website that has built over four hundred guitars with Brazilian. Maybe just maybe, I'll try one set, just to fill my shop with that bubble gum smell when freshly worked. Some woods do have a seducing aroma.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Yes Bruce ,

I've been thinking the same thing. I've been around wood long enough to wish I had picked up some when there was plenty around, and would like to build at least one guitar out of brazlian. When that special came out last week, I actually ordered a couple of sets, then changed my mind on the ride to work and called them up and cancelled the order.

I think I just want to find one good tree somewhere and build of that for ten years or so...

   I've built anout 65 guitars using Brazilian and most of it was nice quartersawn old growth that
i'd acquired from various old timers like Mike Longworth before his move down south. It's great wood, but only different, not better, in my opinion.

   Are the prices inflated and unfair to customers who finally end up with it? Absolutely, but more power to the guys who are able to convince a customer that the Emperor has new clothes and get the premium prices that they do.

   The pricing has been driven up steadily by a few small groups of people....the builders who have it on their shelves, the players and collectors who own guitars built with it and may sell them in the future, and the store owners who have it in stock and can thicken the profit margin because of its presence in a guitar.

   There has been a carefully and aggressively orchestrated hype built around the mystique of it and the tone has been touted as being so far above any other wood that it's hard to believe any builder would have the audacity to even consider building a guitar with anything else.

   Ive played some outstanding Brazilian guitars...and some complete duds...and from the best builders in the world. On the other hand, I've played some guitars with backs and sides made from East Indian Rosewood, Cocobolo, Zircote, Macassar Ebony, Koa and Mahogany that were just as outstanding with some being even better sounding....and some duds with those woods as well. Just as loud...just as articulate and separated...just as warm and balanced and complexed, but different in voice.

   When the right set of wood pieces arrive at the right luthier's bench and are married together to become a guitar, something magical happens and the clouds seem to part and angels seem to sing as its tone rises from the first chord being struck...no matter what wood is used. Some describe their experiences with Brazilian only, but it's usually only the result of being programmed by the builders and sellers and other players.

   More players buy it because they can afford it rather than because they understand or even hear the difference in its tone from that of other woods. Others buy it simply for the status of being able to say they have it. I like when a player comes to me and is open to options that will more completely meet his tonal and dynamic needs even though he's heard and read that Brazilian is the best from all of those guys who stand to rake in an embarrassing profit on it.

   It's one of the very few things in the world of lutherie that embarrasses me when we start to talk about the upcharges that various shops put on the stuff. I usually charge very little over what I'd paid for any set of Brazilian just to fairly and reasonably cover my time and effort in seeking it out and securing it.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars Kevin Gallagher38874.1016550926

with my skills, by the time i could build a top notch guitar, sets will be selling for 10000!!

For the equivalent of $150 I can buy a really top quality set of Madagascan Rosewood in Europe. Now $1000+ for BRW or $150 for Madagascan. Boy that's a tough decision!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=highdrawlicks]

And one more thing. Does anyone else out there think that Martin's one
millionth guitar looks like a giant pimp's ukelele?

[/QUOTE]

Its a bit too "busy" that guitar....kinda like a painting where theres too
much going on. Theres some amazing inlay work gone into that guitar
but its just not my cup of tea.

Kevin's posted (quite eloquently, I might add) on this topic before over at the AGF. And on a lot of counts, I agree with the general sentiment that brazilian is ridiculously overpriced.

But people are genuinely happy to buy it at large markups and are convinced that what they have is truly superior, so where's the harm? It's true that many people only want brazilian for the prestige and because they've been told that it sounds better...but isn't that true of high end handbuilt guitars in general?

I also would suggest that there's nothing wrong with luthiers taking advantage of areas where they can make a good profit because in others they're not going to be able to. There are plenty of times when someone agrees to do something special for someone's guitar and it turns out to be a whole lot more work than it was worth.

Even with the high markups that people are able to get their buyers to pay, I just don't understand how people can be paying $1500+ for stump wood as they have been at the recent allied sales...

Andrew Wright
Managua, Nicaragua

It occurs to me that, for the consumer, a guitar with BZ back and sides has become a status symbol -- the same way a Rolex or a Mercedes is. Back in a previous life when I used to deal in cameras, there was (and I'm sure still is) a group of folks who believed that Leicas were without peer. But they treated their Leicas like jewelry and many of them seldom got used. I think the mystique that has grown up around BZ is similar in many ways.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

There is another reason why we buy it, and why players ask for it. Insurance.

What do we know for SURE (provided the sun comes up tomorrow)? That BRW will cost more tomorrow than it costs today. That certainly creates some demand for us to buy it now to be built with at a later date, and it helps the player / buyer justify the high price for a hand built guitar in the fact that it will hold its value or perhaps even appreciate due to the value of the materials alone.

I am not saying that the thinking is entirely rational, but it ** IS ** happening. That increases demand and helps drive up the prices.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Brazilian is what it is, in the market it has a certain mystique, and I'm inclined to agree with Michael some people like to have it as a kind of status symbol.

I think if we go back in time the reason Luthiers started to use it as it was a good tonewood and it was available in reasonable supply at a reasonable price. They didn't as some might believe try every tonewood and decide Brazilian was the best.


I'm with Colin on Madagascan Rosewood, I'd sooner buy 10 set of Mad Rose.

I also agree that there are many other Alternative tonewoods that can be made into beautiful guitars, not that I have an issue if someone wants Brazilian Rosewood and I can find a nice set I am more than happy to make them a guitar with it, I love working with Brazilian for the smell alone.

Coming to the original point, I agree that many of the sets you see around they would have binned years ago.

Anyone who knows me well at all, knows that I love Brazilian Rosewood. There is nothing comparable to it in looks or tone to me. And the smell.....ahhh!
That's not to say other woods can't also sound great. I've heard East Indian guitars that can knock your socks off. John Osthoff made a Madrose guitar a couple years ago that was incredible.
I can't afford to buy Brazilian at most current prices, simply for economic reasons. So I don't buy it. However, I learned a lesson from Mr. Zoot. You can buy wood when it is reasonably priced, even if it's a bit more than what you want to pay for wood, or watch it skyrocket in price and make it forever out of reach when it's in demand by customers.
To say "I won't build with it" for whatever reasons, limits you, and your potential clients. My only guide for using or not using any species is legality. Period.
Buyers of high end custom handmade instruments expect a builder to be flexible and to give them what they want, or they will go elsewhere, unless you can be a great salesperson and sell them on an alternative they're willing to go for. Face it, all rosewoods are somewhat more scarce than other woods just because of what they are. Madrose won't be as easy to obtain in a few years, and is relatively hard to obtain in large sizes even now.

It's one thing if you have clientele that are willing to pay the upcharges for what they want, another thing if you're building on spec. I agree with Kevin that some upcharges are ridiclous. I'm currently rethinking mine.
My thought is, if you build on spec and have ultimate confidence that you can turn a better profit on a brazilian guitar, then buy some and build with it.

What I intend to do (when I'm back at it again) is to build guitars with woods that I think are great, and if the guitar plays and sounds better than I hoped, I can adjust my price based on how good it is in combination with the woods used, rather than just because of the woods. You can't do that if you're building a commissioned guitar, but I think it makes sense for me. If you built two identical guitars with identical sets of brazilian, and one came out really good, and the other was beyond exceptional, wouldn't you want more money for the exceptional one than the good one?

As to the quality of BRW these days, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Some of what's out there today is far better than you think. I've seen stuff recently from Steve @ Colonial and from The Zootman that is fantastic. Most of that is coming from veneer mills that had the leftovers sitting around. And veneer mills always bought the best stock.
I say grab it while you can legally get it at a reasonable rate, because it's only going to go up during our lifetime.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Back when I started building was just about the same time that LMI was getting started having just bought out Bill Lewis's stock... people may not realize or remember but it was Bill that started the A, AA, AAA grading of tonewoods and it has stayed around. Unfortunately people on eBay dont remember Bill when they call their wood a dubious "7A"

At that time LMI was getting most of its BRW from Hut Hettig. In the 70's LMI was selling BRW that was really nicely quartersawn with good color for $75.00 !!! I still have some of those sets I bought back then from LMI and other sources but there is almost no comparison between the BRW sold today and that stock.

I have built several dozen classical in BRW but that is more about a conventional look and expectation than to charge a primo price. Once my old sets of BRW are gone I doubt that I will be searching out sets given the current price and condition of the wood being sold.

I agree with Colin and others...today if you want a wood that looks like BRW and is stable go with Madagascar. Note that even with Madagascar there is more than one species that is called Madagascar Rosewood.

The two most common are Bois de Rose (Dalbergia maritima) and Palisander (Dalbergia baronii). Dalbergia maritima is a rich burgundy red color with black striping. Dalbergia baronii is a dark brown tone and can often pass for Brazilian Rosewood. Both look and sound great.

Honduras Rosewood can sound very much like BRW but tends to be a lighter color with generally less interesting grain. Another wood that sounds very much like BRW is Osage Orange. It would be hard to sell if you built a classical guitar from it but if you had your eyes closed you would not be able to distinguish it from rosewood.

I have also build 4 classicals with Malaysian Blackwood which looks and sounds great. It is actually an ebony but can have the same spiderweb look of a fine BRW set. There again there are several species that are all called Malaysian Blackwood of which one looks greenish, one looks like grey tones and the other a deep red/black which can look like some older BRW.

As to BRW warping and cracking...yep...I have had sets crack while stickered with no apparent reason. I have had quartersawn sets curl up like a banana when resawn and had other flatsawn sets stay dead flat for 20+ years....very variable.

Even the EIR I am seeing these days is much poorer in general than sets bought over 5 years ago. The key is to buy the best you can afford while it is reasonable and then work from that reserve.

As for the Martin, I remember the man who I learned woodworking from, James Krenov, used to quote Saint-Exupery..."A thing is finished, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing to take away".

                    Paul Harrell

I'm with you Michael. When I see Brazillian I just right on past. I think there is plenty of just as good to a lot better for the money.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

In my original post I did say "More power to those builders who charge the upcharges that are being seen on Brazilian." and didn't and never will condemn anyone for the use of any wood that is legal. The hand built guitar is one that is given much more attention and because of that attention, much more time as it's built. Not only are the materials hand picked many times by their future owners, but their tone and intial playability are both cusomeized to the new owner's deisresand personal needs.

   We've all played great Martins and Taylors and Gibsons that are assembled very quickly with little time taken, for obvious reasons, to customize them, but only to "standardize" them. This means to bring them to the expected standard of that particular production builder for what their general customer/dealer base has come to expect as far as tone, playability and appearance from them. As long as a Martin is as close as possible to what a Martin is suposse to be according to parameters that have been determined by hundreds of thousands of any given model being produced. Repetition initiates consistency and long cycles of repetition tempers that consistency even more.

    Do you think that a guy on the fonal set up line at Martin doesn;t notice when a guitar that is a dud comes to his bench? Of course he does, but he doesn't send it back thorugh the line for the "voicing" guys to give it another go. It gets set up and sent off to settle and then to be shipped to its intended destination. As small r solo shops, we can go to great lengths to begin to focus on the intended tone from the very earliest steps in the build process...starting with wood selection. That isn't only referring to the species chosen for their tonal and dynamic input, but also to the selection of material that will become the components that will be adjecent to and affected by those major tone determining woods. Bracing should always be considered for its own resonant characteristics as well as its relationship to that of the top, back and sides...not just quickly pulled from the top of a stack and glued in place to avoid falling behind and getting to lunch late. It can;t happen in a production environment where numbers and quotas are powerful parts of the process.

   

   Many hand built guitars, mine inluded, aren't much more expensive than a Martin built with the same woods and with the same amount of "custom shop" detailing given to it. The exception is that my standard models and those of a most luthiers working alone or in their small group shops will receive more tonal and dynamic attention and coaxing than even the highest priced and most custom detail oriented production guitar. They just don't have and can't afford to take the time. That's the nature and origin of the "mystique" surrounding custom hand built guitars...not hype generated by scarcity or limited supply against a deep demand.

   Most of the hype that surrounds some builders is the result of great marketing, good timing and powerful endorsements. I spoke with an artists who is a good friend to me and he shared with me how a certain builder chased him around the country, showing up at concerts giving him guitars and asking for an endorsement in return. After nearly 15 guitars that were returned to the builder for various reasons, the artist agreed to give him permission to use his name and likeness in ads. He told me that he began to feel badly that the builder was traveling great distances to put another guitar in his hand most times. Well, the guys sales went through the roof...for a time and the artist rarely used his guitar, but the power of a high visibility endorsement proved its value in the market again. Interesting stuff when you know what the underlying story is.

   This isn't always the case, but it does happen. I just got to spend a little time with an "A list" country player who is endorsing a particular brand of production guitar. He said he'd never played one before they offered to pay him and send him a good number of instruments for free...and he offerd to leave one with me as a gift when he left last week.

Just some thoughts to clarify,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I have never used BRW and probably never will. I TOTALLY agree with the
description Paul has on his website. There are so many awesome and
reasonably priced tonewoods out there. Personally I seem to reach for
Cocobolo a lot, I can get very nice cocobolo for around $100 here locally in
San Diego.

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com