Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all,

I am thoroughly enjoying my first build which is a 000 kit from Stewmac.

So far all is going pretty well and I have managed to take my time over things and not get too excited. I have a complete body now and i have also inlayed the fretboard and made the peghead (veneer etc)

Today I have started to rout the binding channels. I have deviated away from the kit instructions in that I have replaced the plastic binding material for some really nice rosewood + fibre material instead.

I have also invested in a stewmac precision router guide which for your information can be found here:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bindings,_trim/Tools_and_supplie s_for_binding:_Binding_channel_cutting/Binding_Router_Guide. html

This piece of equipment does not easily allow a wedged base to be used in order to take account of the curvature of the back especially but also of the top too. Consequently my routing channels are not quite square and true leading to gaps between the binding and the body in places. This is especially true on the back were the curvature is more severe (5 degs).
The top is not so bad and may sand out?

Please help I dont know whats best to do. I have taken the advice from this forum which is to:
STOP, pause, breathe deeply and ask you guys for help before making it any worse!
So please fire away people:)

pics below.

Hi, Barry, and welcome to the forum.   Many of us use a jig to hold the laminate trimmer to bind channels. I made a new base for my trimmer out of UHMW (?)(the really slick plastic stuff) and it has a small "donut"shape that protrudes in the center. This is only about 3/8"wide and that is all that rides on the top/back while routing. Works very well. I'd post a photo if that feature was working.    Someone will be along shortly and explain better than me.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Thanks very much for the reply.
You can post pics if you link (green tree without arrow icon) to an uploaded photo using photobucket or similar.
Barry

Do you think that your technique will work with the stewmac guide that i am using and do you think that i can resue my build using your technique

That bevel (seen in the second photo) can either be matched by trimming the binding or by using a knife or chisel to bring the bevel to 90 degrees, relative to the side. Of course, I am "old school". These guys have about a million years, collectively, of experience and will have a much more elegant solution(s)!

Excellent and thanks for your advice. Matching the bevel never occured to me.
I was thinking of taking the bevel out with a knife / chisel but i wanted to make sure if this would be an acceptable way forward first with the pros :)


Barry

I don't know if the stewmac guide can be make to work or not. I built the Williams binding jig (see the jigs section for instructions) and use a laminate trimmer in it.
Yes, the current build can be corrected. You can rerout, taking it a little deeper and add a purfling line to the bottom of the binding. And you can add a wider purfling on the top if needed.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Thanks Ron.

I was hoping to not to have to include more binding or any purfling if could help it.

I would be more up for 'cleaning' the channels up to take my bindings.

Barry

Barry...with a little luck maybe you could find another OLFer in the area that could take you under their wing. They might have a binging jig that you could have them show you how they work and could square up your channels. Once you see several of the jigs you could probably build one that is similar. Dave White (UK) has been especially helpful to me in the past and might have a few ideas.

Good Luck!

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Brad
Avon, OH

Brad,

Many thanks for your reply.
Do you know were abouts in the UK Dave is?

I know you guys think the UK is tiny buts its actually not soo good getting around the congested transportation network   

Hesh thanks buddy.

And no i hadnt just taped the bindings there to illustrate i actually have (in my panic) taped them upside down without realising it so thanks for mentioning it to me.

I think i am going to try and get hold of Dave White maybe.

I am using a Dremel because it is light. I have purchased the stewmac precision router guide (linked in my 1st post) but I HAVE NOT made a wedged routing base and this is why I have ended up with a beveled ledge :(

Should I clean the ledge up with a chisel / knife
or
Should I re-rout with a laminate trimmer and a propper jig / base

Thanks all
Barry



[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Hi Barry and welcome to the OLF!!

What router bit set are you using to cut the channel? The bevel should not be there and the bottom ledge should be square to the side cut. This will eliminate the gap completely if you snug your bindings well with glueing them.

The Stew-Mac ball bearing set is what I use with a laminate trimmer. For a dremel type tool you would probably want a sprial down cut bit and make many, small passes sneaking up on the final depth of the cut/ledge.

Also one of your pics shows the binding taped in place but the fiber part is up and it should be down or you are going to scrape and sand it all off. You may have just taped it there to show the gap and if so forgive me please for this comment. Just trying to help you all I can.

I started with the Stew-Mac kit and it was a great time and makes an excellent gutiar. Your understanding of the need for a donut/wedge type shim sounds like you have a complete understanding of why this is needed. Typically the worst place where the router tends to lean out the most is the back, upper bout, near the neck heel.

Any way I would seriously consider squaring up the channel with a proper router bit so that it is uniform all around. If you end up with the bindings recessed below the top bindings are easy to make any way and thicker bindings look cool to me.

Welcome again!!![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=snood] Brad,

Many thanks for your reply.
Do you know were abouts in the UK Dave is?

I know you guys think the UK is tiny buts its actually not soo good getting around the congested transportation network    [/QUOTE]

Hi Snood..totally agree with your comments about our congested island...

That's why we made the decision to live on the border of Wales!! I totally avoid going east, only headed West...getting round Wales is an incredible joy, and only takes 1hr40mins to get to the coast, in that distance any where else on the compass seems to take THREE times as long!!!!

I am a beginner too, currently building my second, I excavated the channels using a violin purfling cutter and a VERY sharp chisel, and going very SLOWLY. In that way, I could work late into the night without disturbing my dearly beloved family.

Sorry I can't help you mechanically speaking, but what I have learned from this fantastic site, is that the guys on here are incredibly experienced, caring and willing to share information. There is always a solution to any problems in luthierie, that's what I have learned from being a member here.

God bless with your build, and keep on enjoying it!! I built a Stewmac D***dn****t kit and she is my main guitar. I love her tone.



Sam Price39109.5080324074

Hahahah nice one Sam.
I am in Worcester so Wales is only a hop skip away. The difference in road surface quality is immense as i pass from Hereofrd into Wales.
England totally bumpy and broken up then a majic line and into Wales for some well maintained smooth as you like A roads. The only bother of course are the speed cameras.

We digress.
Anyway I have attempted to clean up the channels with my chisel and knife blade. The results are failry good...I think I may just save this one.

I am not expecting it to be amazing as its my first but I am a perfectionist and i know that I am always going to be looking at the faults....I guess thats character....or is tha another way of saying I will not do that again:)

I ahave fired Dave White an email so until I hear from him or anyone else thats close by in the UK I will persevere with tidying the channels up.

I ahve had to make up some lost side thickness with some ultra thin strips of rosewood too but it looks ok.

Thanks again

Barry

I will build again!

A couple of other alternatives to consider (one that I'd use):
A file can be used to square up the channel on most of the body, except the waist area. Even if you use a knife/chisel, you will probably need to clean up the channel.
If you are handy with a scraper you can put a bevel on the binding (you can throw together a jig for this in a few minutes, or just use a bevelled guide block. This is easier if your bindings are not already bent, however.
John

Oh one thing I forgot.

I have also experienced a bit of tear out as well (I know...all in all a bad day but i am learning and that is value in its own right)

How should I repair this?
I guess i need som more sitka and rosewood to fill in the tears but where do i get such small quantities?


Barry

Looking at your pic again, I can't actually understand how you got an angle different than 90deg...most router bits have square profile at the end, so the inside angle is 90, though perhaps not square to the side of the guitar.
John

JohnAbercrombie
It is beacuse the top surface of the guitar (the back) has a curve on it which is quite pronounced at the neck block. This has thrown the bit away from vertical leaving a beveled ledge.

Barry

Snood...I am not sure where Dave is located. I would send him a private message.Brad Way39109.5982407407

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Brad
Avon, OH

I would use a very sharp gramil to square the channel before I would try re-routing it. A gramil is easy to use and presents little risk of slipping out of the channel like a chisel would on that beveled cut.

Yeah Snood using stew macs router base with a dremel for cutting binding channels is a pretty dificult task.You`d think they would come up with something like a tilt base for a dremel.I`m gonna try the binding router guide stew mac sells on the next one and see if I have any luck.I think it will work better on a radius,but is going to require a real steady hand.
                    good luck
                            James W B

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Barry,

I'm located just outside High Wycombe - about half way between London and Oxford so you are not that far away.

You took the right option in truing the channel rather than beveling the binding. The dremel is not powerful enough imho for cutting the binding channels and you need a guide for your cutter (be it dremel or lam trimmer} that will keep the router bit perpendicular to the sides. It appears that you let it follow the curvature, tilt away from the sides at the top and hence cut too deeply at an angle. My first concern would be that you may have gone so deep that when you true up the bevel, the routed ledge is deeper than your binding plus attached side purflings. What tends to happen in these areas is that the guide rides up the top/back and tilts so you can get a sort of compensation.

So - is your trued up binding ledge too deep for the binding anywhere? If not is your binding ledge a uniform depth around the entire perimeter on the top and back? Also are the binding channels a constant width all the way round? If it isn't and you want the aesthetics of the binding beimg uniform then you will have to work on the shallow areas to get then to the right depths and widths.

This is quite trick with your set up and involves careful and many passes with the dremel carefully stting and resetting the depth and width and keeping the router perfectly upright. You could also use gramils and chisels to carefully get the same result.

After all of this check the fit of your binding and tape it in "dry" to check accurate fit everywhere - remembering to shellac the top first so that the tape doesn't pull out fibres from the top when you remove it.

This is difficult stuff to diagnose/teach over the interenet and if you could make the trip down here with the guitar box and binding it would be easier to give you the right advise etc.

Don't despair it all comes out fine in the end!Dave White39110.5399305556

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Dave,

Firstly thanks so much for the advice.
I am in Malvern, Worcs so not too far away at all really.

You are quite correct about the channels being too deep in places.

I have spent a long time carefully taking the bevel out.

To do this i used a very sharp chisel and a knife. I then snaded the channels by wrapping 180 sandpaper around the very sharp and square edges of my square.

Where the channles ran too deep post squaring i found some very thin dark cloured wood in the kit. I think that they are for shimming the dovetail joint so I will have to buy / acquire some more from Stewmac.

Anyway i have used these with superglue to 'replace the wood were the channels ahve run too deep. I then sanded them flush witht eh sides. The end result is ok (bu not perfect) and the bindings now sit quite well in the channels.

There are some very minor 'gaps' in places. I was planning on 'filling' these after the bindings are glued up but I am not sure.

I appreciate that what I have doen will probably really disgust some people on here but the way I see it is that this is my very first ever guitar build. My goal is to end up with a pretty nice personal guitar that is hopefully better than my Taylor big baby and a wealth of knowledge and skills to apply to no.2

I think the bindings will look ok once everything is snaded/filled/finished etc.

I also repaired so minor dings to my ebony fingerboard using ebony dust and superglue.. I am well please with this result :)

[QUOTE=snood] Dave,
There are some very minor 'gaps' in places. I was planning on 'filling' these after the bindings are glued up but I am not sure.

I appreciate that what I have doen will probably really disgust some people on here but the way I see it is that this is my very first ever guitar build. My goal is to end up with a pretty nice personal guitar that is hopefully better than my Taylor big baby and a wealth of knowledge and skills to apply to no.2

[/QUOTE]

No problem Barry. feel free to come visit anytime.

Personally I find it harder to fill gaps after the binding is glued in than to find out what the gap is caused by and fix before. Sometimes it's a case of fine filing of the slots and or binding to get it to seat, but if there is missing wood, then do what you have already done and glue in some matching wood and re-shape the binding channel. Where are the remaining gaps? Nowadays I use at least one roll of the Stew-Mac/LMI brown binding tape per instrument - fit and refitting dry and adjusting untill it fits as perfectly as possible until I reach for the glue. It's fiddly, a pain and drives you nuts but it is time well spent.

No one is going to be remotely disgusted about what you have done, you are firmly in the "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" club we are all in. Come and check out my early builds What's important is that you will end up with your own guitar that soundwise will "kick donkey" as I think our American friends say, compared with your Baby Taylor. Plus there will always be the next one, and the next one and . . . .

Post some more pics of the build here.Dave White39110.6150925926

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Cheers Dave

I will post some more pics in a mo.
I will post my fingerboard.

I want to tape up and re-check my bindings but i need some advice first.

First time i did this i used low tack duck masking tape as in the DIY stuff for painting. I wanted to use low tack because of the fibres comming off the sitka top.

The low tack was no way strong enough to hold the bindings in place. They are wood (rosewood #2020 from stewmac http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bindings,_trim/Wood_binding_and_ purfling/Natural_Wood_Bindings.html)

So the question is do i get some high tack stuff if so what (stewmac/lmi) and if so do i need to shellac. The instructions dont mention anything but then again

I have found this is this ok?
http://www.frenchpolishes.com/products/1877_shellac_range.ht m

Barry