Official Luthiers Forum!

To those of you who think I'm too much of a hard-a** about learning basics, please read this thread from AG Guitar Talk.

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_ topic&f=12&t=003518#000002


A well intentioned, underqualified luthier working on a fifty year old Martin. Now some of the recent work needs to be redone if the guitar and it's value is to be saved. The whole job is way out of any kind of logical sequence. Why?   Lack of understanding of the basics of guitar setup and repair. This result is exactly the kind of thing I've been ranting against in my pleas that folks know the basics before tackling higher level work. I guess I could say that it's fine to screw up your own built guitars, but this is a mid 1940s D-18 that is potentially worth many thousands of bucks. If it's not screwed up by a "luthier". It was worth more before the repair job than it's likely to be worth now...

I agree with you completely...especially if the guitar is one of value.

As far as an individuals guitar that they are going to build, it still makes sense to build at the rate you have learned. There is nothing wrong with starting out building from a kit and as far as repairs go there is no harm in repairing a beater garage sale basket case guitar before ever tackling something that is over your head.

For a while when I started out building back in the seventies, I did repairs in a music shop where I learned by watching the lead repairman work on D'Angelico's and other valuable instruments.

I knew my limits and was content doing just setups and adjustments on instruments but watched closely how to repair a guitar in a way that does not change the original instrument and the things that I learned have helped me ever since.

By the way, the luthier who was the lead repairman was Ken Parker and was most of the other guys that worked in the same place probably went nowhere, Ken still continues to make really nice guitars (at least the ones he makes).

There is alot of value in the experience that comes with repetition and while I only build classical guitars and always to the same plantilla, I still learn from each intrument that I build...sometimes the big "aha" moments come when doing the same thing I have done before but for whatever reason, I see or hear it different and it changes things in ways that take my building to another level.

I am very interested to hear more about your ceramic frets as they develop...the concept makes so much sense but until something trys something new, it can seem radical.

rick, it is sad to say that such incidents are all to common. i have been at a festival this week and was asked to quickly look at an older, mid fifties era, d18 which had been subjected to some of the same very unsympathetic treatment, e.g., a severely shaved bridge which was very thin with a shallow slot that couldn't properly support the saddle. as well it had virtually no saddle remaining above the bridge, the action was still virtually unplayable, and the owner had been told to have the bridge shaved, again.

i outlined what the effects of the previous work were, the reasons and requirements to return it to health, including but not limited to a reset, a new bridge, possible need for bridge plate work, new saddle and nut, fret dress, some crack and binding repair, and whatever else might be revealed in a complete bench inspection.

the owner both understood and was appreciative of the evaluation, but somewhat taken aback when advised of what damage had been done to his guitar and what the total repair cost might run to in his east coast major metro area. but compared to what the guitar would be worth properly repaired the cost is worth it, but only if the work is done correctly.

      We are keepers of these instruments. Care of them is not something to take lighty. I just repaired a Martin with some issues. It was brought in for a set up with action of about 1/4" at the 12th.
     I told the owner you need a new bridge as it was "shaved" and a reset. He wasn't happy but once I showed him what they are to look like and sound like we did the proper thing and replaced the bridge.
    His luthier in the city "fixed" this a few years back. Now he has a $500 bill in repair
john hall
blues creek guitars

to say a bridge is "shaved" is quite the understatement.... a lot of the ones i see have been belt sanded!

Matt

As well as making guitars and lutes, as many of you know, part of the 'work' I do on musical instruments is the repair and bringing back to playing condition of important and historic museum instruments, guitars and lutes, from the 16th century onwards. Most of what I do involves first an 'un-repair' of previous attempts and then carrying out a reversible repair on the instrument.

I think the repair of potentially important and valuable instruments IS something best left to those that really know what they are doing. Like me, a full time academic geologist! Oh well.

If it's an old beaten up mass made guitar have a go, it's a learning process, me I cut my teeth on a rare Venere lute. A case of do what I say not....

Colin

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Yes, when it comes to mistreatment of an instrument an unpreped lute is right up there with an unpreped owner. No licence required to own an old classic, just takes money.

Sometimes, for those with the dollars, no understanding of why an object is desirable to others is required. Just the mere fact that it is desirable to others is enough for them to obtain it at any cost.

Quite often for these people once acquired and the hunt be over, so is the care. Yet another symptom of the material world.

Cheers

Kim

Good to see this in its own thread.

That's got to be one of my worst nightmares, seeing a vintage Martin in the wrong hands. For the sake of the instrument, it's a good thing he posted before doing any real damage, assuming he hadn't done any yet. It's one thing to bugger up something you've built yourself, but quite another to bugger up a fine old instrument while charging the poor customer money for it.

BTW, Rick your link has a space in it that renders it invalid. It was most likely put there by Safari, which doesn't play well with the forum software. Firefox works.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Hmmm, for some reason the page comes up as a page that does not exist.  Could you post the name of the topic so I can search for it that way?

BTW, I have devoured all of the 'heated debates' over the last week with great interest without posting.  I can see both sides of the issue, but I respect Rick's experience enough to look past my feeling possibly getting hurt to grab the information he is offering.  

Sorry about that.... that was my fault. I modified Rick's post to make the link hot, and it took me a couple tries to get it right.

It is working now.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Yikes. I once had a guy try to tell me that I should have the bridge shaved down if I wanted a lower action, instead of doing a neck reset. Seems like it was a common way of buying time for a customer to keep from having to do the reset. Not perhaps the best thing.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Nevermind. It works now. Thanks Burbank!

Rick--

I agree even if the guitar is of no appreciable value. What I try to do is slip a repair job or two in between building something. I have some old Yammie FJ's that I really like, though they are quirky enough to make some repairs problematical (epoxy in the neck dovetail). I also like to snag a Harmony H165 of E-Bay once in a while to make playable, usually neck set and refret and general cleanup. They will never be made to sound great, maybe not even good, but they can be made playable. They are a great practice bed for neck resets and I've yet to have a church or a school district music department turn down a free guitar in a gig bag. Next up is an old (1920's) Stella. It's a cheapie laminate that needs a neck reset, frets and some crack repairs. Its also the only vintage guitar I can afford to own.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

These things pop up way too often when someone doesn't think to ask
the right questions until after they've gotten in over their heads.

The 50's D-18 in my shop right now had a massive bridge plate and
supersized bridge, with a series of random spruce and ebony plugs for all
the missing spruce in between. When I removed the extremely shaved
fingerboard I found a healthy dose of Bondo filling tearout in the top and
the neck. Of course there are the side patches and fills from previous
volume and tone controls, Hot Dots drilled through the braces, and a
fresh .020" layer of finish added with each repair. Some of the repairs
may have been semi-professional, but most look like they were done by
some friend with a wood shop in their basement who could do the owner
a favor. Then there's a Kay Barney Kessel which of course had a broken
truss rod. The "luthier" who broke it kindly superglued the nut back on,
filling about 50% percent of the truss rod slot in the process.

[QUOTE=ToddStock] Wish this were restricted to newbs, but you're
dreaming if you think so. There are nearly as many 'experienced' repair
people willing to screw up your pride and joy as there are helpful
amateurs. Skilled repair people are as rare in the guitar world as they are
in any other area of endeavour.
[/QUOTE]

There's 1940 0-15 I also have in the shop that was repaired about 8
years ago by another respected local music store / repair shop. That now
needs the neck re-reset, the bridge re-replaced, and probably an entire
new treble side after the lovely patchwork they provided. This of course
was done at the local warranty center for most manufacturers, from which
I get a regular flow of work in which customers pay me to undo and redo
what was "repaired" under warranty. Of course then it costs twice as much
to repair than if the warranty shop had never touched it.

These are just a few examples of current work in the shop in which the
instruments would cost less to repair and be worth more in the end if the
repairs not been attempted before. While I could say it's job security and
keeps me busy, I would much rather not see this stuff happen. There's
plenty of work to keep me busy without having to restore someones
failed repairs, and these kinds of jobs are often not what I consider a
pleasure to restore.

Of course Rick, your example above is particularly poignant. Jumping to
replace a bridge while obviously having no understanding of setup or
guitar geometry certainly qualifies "in over your head". On a 70's Gibson
B-25 they may be able to chalk it up as a learning experience, but a pre-
war D-18??

Oops doesn't quite seem the appropriate response.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I don't think you can call that guy on the AG forum a Luthier. The term luthier is thrown around way to loosely. I think you may be right in that the name of this forum can be a little misleading if one holds the term luthier in such high regard, similar to Doctor, General, Admiral or Dictator. Some people do hold their Dictator in high regard don't they

I don't know if I will ever call myself a luthier, I hold the term in high regard. It must entail construction and repair not just one of these talents. I do feel confident that I can repair anything that goes wrong or breaks on any of the guitars that I build, but I still won't call myself a luthier, just my choice. What good is it to be able to build a guitar but never be able to fix it if someone damages it or due to fualty materials or workmanship? How can a "professional" guitar maker even think about offering a warranty without knowing how to repair one of his own guitars should it require warranty work.

This certainly doesn't mean that people shouldn't build guitars. BUT people certainly need to be careful with what they call themselves and what they do with those guitars that they build.

Rick, I think (though I could be wrong) that you tend to look at the entire world of guitars and stringed instruments with your Luthier glasses on when I don't think that you can. There is just to many miles between the ends of the spectrum. I think your at one end of the spectrum and many of the folks here at at the other end. And that is OK.

Everyone starts somewhere right. Most of you seasoned veterans of the craft started out with what? No books or only one or two on the subject, ambition, some tools, wood and a big set of kahunas right. Of course there were other's who came before you just like you have come before us. I bet that most folks like yourself built a guitar or two or three before you decided to get in with a known luthier to learn the basics. Every guitar builders website I've read that has a bio section mentions starting out this way, so why is is wrong for anyone of us to do the same? It's not and actually we have the opportunity if we so desire to learn at an exponential rate compaired to you guys because of things like books, video's, the inter net and willing seasoned vets like yourself to help us learn.

Everything takes time right. I bet when you started out, you may have wanted to try doing a neck reset right out of the gate but maybe didn't because someone told you that you couldn't. How many setups did you do before you did your first neck reset? Or how many basic repairs did you do before you had to do a side replacement or back replacement. It's all a journey to some level of "Luthierhood" and everyone starts somewhere. The guy in on the AG forum chose to start (from the sounds of it start) on a vintage Martin. Not such a good choice but his poor choice none the less.

Back to the "spectrum" of guitars. One thing that tends to get lost all to often is the subjectivity of each individual person who picks up a guitar. There are more opinions about guitars, their sound and playability than there are guitar makers out there. The spectrum is so large that there can be Chinese companies that pump out 50,000+ guitars a year and the small boutique guitar maker like Jeff Traugott who makes what 15-30 guitars a year, possibly less.

I think like in many areas of life, some perspective for where each person is at needs to be appreciated.

I appreciate the fact that you will and do hold us amiture, rookies, hobbyist or hacks over the fire to make us all better builders and to hold us in account for what we know, don't know or are learning. Thank you for that.

I can also appreciate the fact that there are people here who love to work with wood, who are creative, love the guitar and have a passion to learn how to build them, for better or worse.

We all have the right to the pursuit of happiness and that should never be squashed by anyone.

I honestly believe that Rick is here to help us all out. He has a rough style that works for some and doesn't work for other. It's all part of the spectrum.

Personally, I'm glad that Rick doesn't hold back his punches, I think that we can certainly excel with some good honest critique of all of our work.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I appreciate the responses here, and I think that some of you clearly understand better where I'm coming from with this particular unfortunate example at hand.

As for "who is a luthier"...well, I think that anyone who takes on repair work for money, takes on the restoration of a vintage instrument, or builds an instrument for sale has put themselves up to be considered a "luthier". That term does not carry a qualitative element with it. There are good luthiers and there are some who are not, and there are some who are on the way to being good but need to stick to a reasonable path on the way and not take on work that's beyond them.

There is a ton of information out there, and there are great people who can either advise or take on work that is more advanced than one is ready for. The trick is to respect the instruments you're working on and know your limitations.

What do you call the guy who graduates last in his class at Med School?

Doctor!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

its funny, i have repaired alot of instruments in my day, especially when i was in the military. when i learned this trade when i was young, my teacher made me watch and learn how to "fix first", and he was a beast at making outstanding guitars with broken parts. of coarse i hated it back then. i hold the lute on a different plane than a accoustic guitar, but i hope i never am considered in this light.

mark b

Perfect, Todd.

I'd like to point out, too, that the best in the business have jobs go "south" sometimes. Neck resets are the open heart surgery of our profession. It's totally routine work done all the time.   And sometimes the patient dies...or something goes awry. The real skill is in fixing that secondary or tertiary problem.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Perfect, Todd.

I'd like to point out, too, that the best in the business have jobs go "south" sometimes. Neck resets are the open heart surgery of our profession. It's totally routine work done all the time.   And sometimes the patient dies...or something goes awry. The real skill is in fixing that secondary or tertiary problem.[/QUOTE]

But I can't recall hearing a luthier say (as doctors do), "The operation was a success, but the patient died."

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Rick Turner wrote:
"I'd like to point out, too, that the best in the business have jobs go "south" sometimes. "

Thanks for that; it has happened to all of us. What counts is what you do next, and a big part of that is 'fessing up.

Once in a while you do get a 'cheap' instrument that turns out to be worth much more than anybody thought. I had a $200 fiddle I was working on for a friend magically transform itself into a $10,000 one when somebody who knew more about such things than I got a look at it. This was after I was well into the repair (a half-edge of the button). Needless to say I took a little more care when I found that out. The customer's reaction when I told her was: "S***! Now I have to get it insured!"

Hesh wrote:
"It blows my mind that people, what ever they call themselves, would take on the risk of working on a prized vintage instrument when they have to know themselves that their own level of expertise is limited at best......"

The problem is, of course, that many times they _don't_ realize it: they don't know what they don't know. In a way, that's what happened with that fiddle: I'm not an expert on minor 18th century Austrian makers. Also, of course, a repair that would be perfectly proper on a three year old Esteban would not be acceptible on a 30's Martin, and the techniques that you'd use there might not be proper on a lute or violin. It's all too easy to overestimate your own expertise, and the more limited the experience, the easier it is.

I'd like to bring up one point of repair ethics that may or may not fit here: the 'value' of the instrument. There are many different ways to determine that, and, in many cases, it's not your call.

An example of that was the waldlute that I got from an old lady who was trying to sell it in the local music store one day when I stopped in. It had developed some cracks in the top, and she took it to a big shop in the city to get it fixed (the same folks who had previously 'fixed' my friend's fiddle, BTW). Those instruments are not worth a lot on the market, the big shop is primarily a violin shop, and they did a 'repair' on it that was consistant with their own judgement of it's value (worthless, or nearly so).

They cut out the carved rose so that they could get clamps in the hole to set the studs. They cut off the back half of the bridge, which was lifting, glued on another piece of wood that looked nothing like the original, replaced her carved bone bridge pins with plastic ones, and glued them in. They taped most of the rose back in with 'Magic Transparent' tape, gave her the rest of the pieces in a baggie, and charged her $80 for this act of vandalism. She couldn't stand to look at it any more, and was selling it to cover the 'repair' cost.

She had bought the instrument new, when she was a young teenager in Germany. She did not mean to play it any more, but simply wanted it to hang on the wall as a reminder of old times. So, what's the value of an old friend?

As far as I'm concerned, that's not my call. If I'm doing a repair, and the person really wants to spend $500 on a $50 instrument, that's their business. My job is to do no harm,, apprise them of the options and the costs, and do the job they want done to the best of my (limited) ability, no matter what I think of the instrument. If it's not something I can work on happily, then my job is to hand it back and suggest somebody who can.

Well...I am glad I didn't graduate last in my class!!!!! I am still a Doc and
hopefully and dang good one!!!!!!

Being a luthier might just take on many forms, just like being a doctor.
There are certainly specialties. Personally in the medical field I am an
expert on Pediatric anesthesia especially for children with complex
congenital heart disease. I have no business giving advice or provide care
in fixing fractures or performing neurosurgery. I am still a doc, but it is
WAY out of my league. I would refer to those that are experts in that
field.

The same may apply to our field of lutherie. Some are experts in classical
guitar construction....some steel string. Some may be a wizard at vintage
repair.   The key is to know what you are and always strive for perfection.
Understand your limits...your strengths and weakness. BUT
It is always good to have an excellent foundation in the global field of
lutherie, just like medicine. I totally agree with most of what Rick has
said. Learning the basics is a must to develop that foundation. It would
be like trying to be a doctor without going to medical school.

On the otherhand you have to develop that foundation somewhere.
Practice on cheap instruments. Go to a garage sale and buy a cheap $20
guitar. Refret it several times. Break the top and develop a well thought
out plan to fix it. If you don't have one, talk to a qualified repair person.
There is no medical school for lutherie to develop the basic fundamental
skills so we have to create our own curriculum.

Ricks basic points, whether your like the way he stated them, are right
on!!! It would be like me performing heart surgery without even
understanding the basic functions of the heart and not have experience in
suturing.

My 2 cents

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

One the most critical skills anyone could have is JUDGEMENT. No matter
whether your are a surgeon or a luthier or a mechanic.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something.

Knowing the difference is the key to judgement. This what I try to hammer
home with the residents and fellows that I teach.

It is what separates mediocracy from excellence.

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

I think the repair of potentially important and valuable instruments IS
something best left to those that really know what they are doing. Like
me, a full time academic geologist![/QUOTE]



Hey Colin, that makes two of us!  Geologists, that is....the only guitars I'm reparing these days are my own.