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Colin, (or any other mahogany lover)

I have not worked with mahogany yet. And reading from your post about the unfortunate reputation as a "cheap" tonewood with the uneducated buyer, I would like to learn about mahogany.

What types of mahogany have you used? What is your favorite? What are its good qualities or bad qualities? How does it bend, is it stable, is it porous, does it finish well? How can we educate the public about its beauty and tone?

Any builder with your skills who chooses mahogany must have a reason, and it is a high recommendation to use it for those of us who have not.

Thank you.

Jeff

Mahogany got the reputation not of "cheap" but of less expensive, because it was and is compared to rosewoods. That said, it is on it's way up in price as it has become harder to get due to years and years of harvesting. It's now on the Cites list of threatened species, and is quickly becoming more scarce. You may actually see Mahogany get very very expensive in your lifetime. The question is, will the desire for it increase as it becomes more scarce? We'll have to wait to see.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

It's a great fingerpicking wood, doesn't necessarily look very exciting, although it can have very attractive ribbon figuring, occasionally flame, as well as other figures. Like most any other wood, really. You've got Honduran (Sw. Macrophylla), Cuban (Sw. Microphylla) and various African mahoganies, like Khaya, which are in the same family as the the others, but different genus and specicies. It doesn't bend as easily as East Indian rosewood, at least not always. Mahogany remains one of my favourite woods to work, carve, chisel, cut, because it does so with grace and ease, is of medium weight, good stability and strength.

As for tone, well, go play some mahogany guitars and decide if you like the tone. I'm more partial to rosewood/spruce guitars on 'first listen', but each top and back combo, combined with the all-important overall design (dreds sound like dreds, OMs sound like OMs..) has it's own character.

Jeff,

It's well known around here about my love of mahogany! When I'm deciding what guitar to build next I have to have a good reason to pick a different back & side wood, that's mainly because the mahoganies suit my playing style.

There are a number of different species of mahogany available as well as some faux mahoganies from entirely different genuses that are sold as 'mahogany'. They will all make very good guitars.

The most commonly available and usually cheapest tonewood is Honduran Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla). Honduran Mahogany is usually as stiff as Indian Rosewood but has a lower density and a somewhat softer surface. This means that it exhibits the same powerful projection properties as Rosewood but with a drier, woodier tone, with very strong fundamentals. The overtones produced are very rich especially in the midrange, giving Mahogany guitars a characteristic 'growl' to their sound. One of Mahogany's great strengths is the wonderful separation and bite it gives to individual notes making it an ideal wood for more complex fingerstyle pieces, Blues and Travis picking, where the rosewoods can become muddy, as well as strummed and picked accompaniment. Mahogany has a rich mid-brown colour, often with a strong stripy appearance as the grain changes direction across it's width. Well quartered pieces have a fine checkered figure. Straight grained Honduran bends and works well, it takes a good finish but is porous so will need filling, I usually use epoxy.

I use sustainably grown Mahogany sets which sound fantastic, and exhibit a mild flame at the edges similar to Koa. These are plantation grown in Sri Lanka, much as Indian Rosewood is these days. I haven't seen mahogany of this quality for a long time! I would be perfectly happy if this was the only tone wood available! Combine it with a good European Spruce top and you have a guitar made in heaven!

The small leaf Mahogany, S.microphylla, also from South America is very close grained and takes a great finish it works and bends well. Slightly more dense than Honduran, it's very maple like in sound.

If you can find some good old sets, Cuban Mahogany, (Swietenia mahogani) is a true premium tonewood. It is denser than the other Swietenias and gives a little more overtones to the guitar's voice, while still retaining the characteristic growl so beloved of the mahoganista (my new term for those addicted to the wood). I have some 90 year old sets that I take out and stroke occasionally they are so good! I've built one guitar from it and it is the best soundng instrument I have ever made. I've also just got a 150 year old billet which, if only I had a re-sawing bandsaw I'd cut into the most fabulous sets, but it's not going to deteriorate so I can be patient.

The faux mahoganies, mainly from Africa, also make great guitars, I have not used them so extensively but have built at least one guitar from each.

A number of different species of the Genus Entandrophragma
are sold as Sapele mahogany, they tend to be available in more fancy figuring, if that is your thing, and vary from a pronounced stripe to the outrageous quilting that Bob Cefalu has sold. The sound is similar to the true mahoganies but more restrained in character. The other one that turns up fairly commonly is Khaya like Sapele it is a little more dense that Honduran and can be more difficult to bend like any figured wood.

Jeff, try a set of honduran mahogany, I'm sure you'll be a convert.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I am a Mahoganista for sure, Colin`s quote has always hit home with me, and it speaks volumes about his experience.

Steve at colonial tonewoods has been hooking me up with really great honduran,and african mahogany, as well as some killer figured and striped sapele.

I recomend giving him a shout.

Matt

new "Cuban Mahogany" that's out there? I did some searching on this wood and as near as I can tell it's plantation wood out of Palau.

The price is sure reasonable. I would be interested in knowing what people who have built with it think of it. Anybody?

Roy,

I see no reason why the plantation grown 'Cuban' shouldn't build a killer guitar. I would think just about all of the Indian Rosewood that we use is plantation grown and the best Honduran mahogany that I have see lately, as I said, is plantation grown in Sri Lanka. I fully expect that all of the exotic South American timber, that we use, will eventually be plantation grown. The exotic hardwoods are faster growing shorter lived trees than the northern softwoods, so plantation trees should be fine, and in fact as they are growing with less competition they should be straighter grained too.

I know at least one of the OLF sponsors has Cuban at a very good price, give it a try I know you won't be disappointed. In fact I think I might get a set and try it for comparison to my old growth Cuban. On that, I am currently negotiating for a lot of old Cuban mahogany from the laboratory benches that are being replaced at my University. If I can get it, (it may have to be burnt because of Health and Safety regs and is currently being tested), I'll have enough to build about 1000+ guitars. It's all turn of the century stuff, 3" thick and would cover a tennis court! Know anyone with a big bandsaw?

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin,

There was a thread a while back where some people expressed their preference for wood grown in the wild as opposed to plantation wood. Myself, I don't have enough experience to say one way or the other. What intrigues me about this wood is that it's grown thousands of miles from Cuba on an island in a different ocean and so I wonder how the two (Cuban from Cuba and Cuban from Palau) would compare.

I like the price and I like the reputation of the original wood it's just that I have so much wood already and so little time.....but then that hasn't slowed me down from buying more wood yet!

Colin...good luck on scoring with the lab benches. It seems to me that it might depend on the nature of the lab.

If they come from a biology lab, there may be dormant biohazards (spores) that someone might consider potentially dangerous. If that's the case, this wood could be sterilized via gamma radiation or ethylene oxide. I have some experience in both methods...let me know if I can help with your justification. Burning would be such a pity and an unnecessary last resort.

If they come from chemistry, physics or engineering labs the surfaces should have no potential hazards. Aside from dings and stains they sould be primo aged and clear wood.

If this all works out, I can see you and The Zootman collaborating on a really big deal...or maybe there's a "Sir Zootman" in the UK.

Good luck in your effort!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Roy,

I don't see any reason why the plantation wood shouldn't be just as good as wild wood, I believe it could be potentially better. It will probably never produce the highly figured wood but it does produce great acoustic wood as most of the Indian rosewood shows, and the Sri Lankan 'Honduras' mahogany that I now use, and prefer. I think if we want to go on using these exotic hardwoods then we will have to get used to the idea of plantation grown woods. OK I will still hunt out the old growth wood as long as it is still out there, my youngest Cuban is 90 years old and all of my top wood is pre-war but I was lucky in getting an old lutherers wood. But I would have no hesitation in building with plantation grown Cuban Mahogany, genetically it is the same and may well in the long term prove just as good or better.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin, be sure to tell us if you do manage to score those old benches! I'd be interested in a few sets, if you'd be willing to part with some..

JJ,

The labs have been in use for more than a hundred years and over that time have had a number of uses as the scientific fashions have changed. Currently they are some of my laboratories and are used for Earth Sciences (geology) teaching, so present no biohazard (apart from some of the students) What I am trying to discover in the archives are what they were used for and when. I believe that they have only been used for the physical sciences and possibly some chemistry. I need to get the benches out as I have some new fancy equipment to put in and I need more space for my post grad students to have their own dedicated research area. Under all refurbishment programmes now we have to get rid of the old wooden benches. Plus, if I get rid of the benches,without costing the university the cost of disposal I keep more in my budget for even more equipment (or more likely some extended field trips).

I'm very hopeful that they will be OK and that I will be able to corner the market in old growth Cuban! All I've got to do now is get a big enough band saw!

ColinColin S38424.5636805556

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Mattia, I think a 1000+ sets will probably only be enough for my own use!!

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Ok, Colin, ya got to me, too. I want some!

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Colin,

Add me to your list of buyers if you cut up those benches.

Steve, Roy et al

Don't worry if I can defeat the box ticking bureaucrats and get this wood, I will make sets available, for shipping cost, to any OLF member who grovels enough. I also thought that I would send some sets, again for shipping costs, to the OLF sponsoring tonewood suppliers as I don't want to tread on their commercial toes. I've just got to get around the regulations where I'm afraid logic seems to play little part. But I'm very tenacious.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin,
Ain't too proud to beg....

By the way, have I metioned lately that you are the finest British geologist I know? And you make the prettiest lute roses, and....
Wait, that's kissing up, not groveling.
Well, you can define the parameters. And we'll do it!

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

You see Steve that just ain't good enough! You said I'm only the finest BRITISH geologist you know, well that's one of the list

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

You are quite right. I recant. I did say you can define the parameters. So--you are simply the best geologist I know. Period. There is none finer, nor more knowledgeable. If there is a question about rocks-- anywhere-- we're going to ask you.

And how about this:

"The more guitars I build, the more I seem to reach for Colin's mahogany!"

(How's my groveling?)

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Or should I say graveling?

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Steve, Save me a space at the front of the groveling line..............I am not worthy, I am not worthy........ (as I kneel down in Colin's presence)

Colin,
You are quiet the salesman. You have my mouth watering. Your gonna have a line clear around the country, or should I say the world. I'm not too proud to beg either ha ha ha-----Snick

Colin,

How much groveling do I have to do? Umm, Ok, you WILL win the Ashes this year!

Actually, I'm on the hunt for unusual Australian timbers at the moment so I'll have something to resaw when my new bandsaw arrives. I wouldn't mind swapping some, for some of that cuban, especially if it means I don't have to heap praise on the English cricket team!

Paul

Colin,

I think what Steve is trying to say is that you're such an incredible geologist he'll buy you a nice 1960's 20in Rockwell bandsaw (and set it up for you) if you send us all some sets. :)

Seriously though... If I were you, I'd want to make at least the cost of a good bandsaw... you deserve something for your generosity and for your time in securing the wood and resawing it. If you are indeed able to get the benches I'll take a few sets from you (any neck blanks for classicals in there?) and make a contribution toward your time and work.

best wishes,
Joshua

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Joshua and the rest of you guys,

Don't worry if (and it's still a big if in the buraucracy that is the European Union) I can get the wood I will offer it to anyone on this conference for the cost of shipping. I don't want to make on the deal, don't worry I'll have a lot of sets available for my own use, so I won't be losing.

I'm concious of the fact that a number of good folk, that are great suporters of this conference, make a living by selling wood out there and I don't want to do anything that would impact on them so I will reserve some for them that they can sell.

For the price of a few sets I've got a good friend here that will do the resawing for me, It's his job so he won't make the botch of it that I probably would!

So, you can all stop grovelling now (that doesn't mean you Steve) and Paul, we're going to win the Ashes anyway, or at least come second .

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.