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Anyone have any experience with this stuff? FWW did some testing and got strength ratings better than HHG.

Here's some interesting info:  http://woodworking.com/article_archive.cfm?section=5&art icle=1390

It is a gel at room temp but liquefies at a lower temp (80 degrees F) than HHG and supposedly stays liquid longer.

The problem with HHG for me is that if I heat my shop to 60 degrees in the winter, the humidity is usually perfect. Going up to 70 takes a lot more energy plus I'll have some serious humidifying to do. My experience is that HHG is not real fun to work with in a 60 degree shop.

Does anyone know exactly what the problems are with the additives in other liquid hide glues? If I get in touch with the makers of this stuff, what should I ask?

I got a sample from a friend and am going to do some creep tests side by side with HHG and pva. I will clamp a couple of pieces of spruce (and a couple spruce and rosewood) into my 15' radius form and monitor springback. I'll then start adding heat and humidity. Any other ideas for tests. I'm assuming based on FWW tests that strength is not an issue.

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No i haven't but it looks interesting. Let us know your results of your test.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Kent sorry buddy we have discussed this before number of times and the the out come was not positive.  You can read the discussion and follow the links in that discussion here:

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14069 &KW=Titebond+Hide+Glue#forumTop  

Go with the fish glue!
No trouble !
mike

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Mike Collins

Man I could have used an edit button on that one........

Thanks Hesh, I did read that before posting. I know the consensus on liquid hide glue is bad but this stuff appears to be different. Different additives and less of them. A search of the archives didn't turn up any direct experience with this brand so I thought I'd ask.

I did read the post by Alan Carruth about the additives in the Franklin brand breaking down the protiens but he didn't know what they were.

Michael, I did build a guitar with fish glue once but I got paranoid after seeing someone elses guitar come apart. It was an extreme circumstance but it happened right after I started using the glue so I stopped. Probably an over-reaction but it stuck with me...or not.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Kent,
I've used it before on gluing a bridge. It came off after 4 months. Not a
very happy camper. I did talk to the owner, and he didn't want to tell me
what exactly was added, but he did say it does have urea added. Basically,
he peed in the pot before cooking. Just kidding . I suppose you could
use it for simple uses, but I wouldn't use it for braces and bridge. Maybe
the back braces, peghead, end wedge, and things of that nature would be
okay.

I recently did a test of the Norlands fish glue that I had sitting in the
fridge for 2 years. On 2 thin pieces of spruce, it would not break on the
glue joint. It really is amazing stuff! Good luck in your tests, and let me
know how it turns out.
Tracy

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

The problem with home "tests" is that they're all short term. Even water and flour will look like a strong glue in a sort term test. Do test, all the time, but while you will check some smaples in a few days, leave other for months and years, then tes again. Leave some in various environments, also. I had CF and spruce samples all over the place, in the attic, basements, in sheds, under homes, under eaves, next to the furnace, you name it.... All weighed down with a simple spring clamp.

over the years, I'd check on them. Every now and again, I'd test one to its breaking limit.

That's how I came to having confidence in polyurethane glues for CF to spruce <bg>

For hide glue, we have the test of time on our side. Thousands of years of well weathered joints on every imaginable wood item.

Now, a quick google search will find that over the centuries, a lot of additives were used to change the working properties of hide glue. Everything from salt to urea, and yes, urine. These were added because no other adhesives existed, so hide glue was modified. But all had effects on how well it worked, from what history tells us.

Why go back in time and repeat the failures?

Want to use hide glue, for what it does best? Get a friggin' pot, a hair color bottle, a couple SS bolts, figure out your clamping system, and quit whining.

For everything else, there's a modern alternative. PVA, epoxy, polyurethane, CA, etc....

Well I did just that. Got the pot, the coloring bottles, the SS bolts, the glue, distilled water....and I'm doing some experimenting with HHG right now, to get comfortable with it. My intent is to use it exactly as you say Mario. So far, I'm staggered by how quick and hard the stuff holds. Amazing, that's for sure.

What I can't wrap my mind around yet is how to work it so fast. I can see being able to do braces quick enough, and bridge plates, etc. But putting the plates onto the rims? Seems impossible although I know it isn't. But even with the hair dryer so far the stuff gels in 30 seconds or less.

I just bought a hot plate (yesterday) so I'll be monkeying around with that a bit. But I'm sold so far on how hard the stuff holds. And clean up is a breeze. Rolls up like, well, snot sorta.   

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Bill JJ has putting the plates on with HHG down and he can help you too.

I used fish glue on the current one and that works great too with very long open times.  I am not sure but I think that JJ is trying fish glue for the plates in the future.

If the plate to the rim is an issue, don't risk it, use Titebond. That's not a joint that hot hide glue is particularly perfect for, anyhow.

I'm re-doing my entire website, and if i can figure out how, I'll include a video to show that hot hide glue can indeed be used for rims <bg> But even so, I still oftentimes use titebond for this joint. It's a fine glue for this use.

"I still oftentimes use titebond for this joint."

Mario...what factors do you consider for using TB over HHG on the plate to rim joint? Why wouldn't you use TB all the time then?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=grumpy] If the plate to the rim is an issue, don't risk it, use Titebond. That's not a joint that hot hide glue is particularly perfect for, anyhow.I'm re-doing my entire website, and if i can figure out how, I'll include a video to show that hot hide glue can indeed be used for rims <bg> But even so, I still oftentimes use titebond for this joint. It's a fine glue for this use.<div style=": ; width: 28px; height: 28px; : 1000; display: none;">

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

JJ, it's more of a mood thing. If I don't feel like rushing, or if I have a plate that for some reason is more finicky at fitting to the rim than usual.

Why not TB all the time? <shrug> Because...

<bg>

And that is about all I can say. I'm not locked into anything on anything, and reserve the right to change my mind daily But a rim to plate joint isn't one where creep is an issue, especially if the brace ends are fitted nicely into the linings, which makes a mechanical locking joint of the whole thing. So, this is a joint where HHG is but a luxury, an "nice" option instead of a "must", in my way of seeing it.

Bill, the biggest change(after the layout and colors being different) is that all photos should be high quality and in focus <lol> Most of the old site was done with a 1.2 MP Kodak POS that was so worn out after 15,000+ photos that it wasn't in focus 90% of the time. Now I'm learning the intricacies of A Canon DSLR, and shooting in Camera RAW format! Ayee, what a difference.... besides, I looked at the "build" a few months ago, and realized I do much of everything differently today.....

[QUOTE=grumpy] JJ, it's more of a mood thing. If I don't feel like rushing, or if I have a plate that for some reason is more finicky at fitting to the rim than usual.Why not TB all the time? <shrug> Because...[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Mood!!! You mean like PMS? You may have to change that avatar to Snow White!

Mario ...you're getting soft on us, Dude!

As Hesh stated...I am, in fact, changing my method to use FG on the tops and backs. I'll continue to use HHG on all other body joints. The glue is still crystalline in nature as opposed to the typical wood glues that are amorphous and because of the soft vinyl groups, those glues are sound dampers IMO.

Can I tell the difference...heck no! But I was taught early on that the devil is in the details and that all of the little things add up.

The rims may not be in the danger zone for adhesive creep, but I'll continue to follow the theory that HHG is better to have in the sonic circuit than a softer glue. After all, aren't we in the business of optimizing sonic transmission?

I'll duck now in anticipation of the incoming shots!    

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

No shots coming your way. I taught you well, now you teach back! <bg>

I'm of the opinion, like Snow White here , that the rim joint isn't that critical to use HHG.
My thinking, JJ, is that it isn't (here we go...) a part of the "sonic circuit". I once read a comment from Richard Hoover about his choice of Basswood for the linings. His thought was that he wanted to decouple the top from the sides. And since the Basswood was sonically dead, it performed its negative function here beautifully. (I know there will be lots of disagreement on his theory, but there you go.) I'm not in complete disagreement with him. In fact, the boys who are doubling up their sides really aren't either. So, if that joint isn't necessarily sonic, then Titebond should be fine there. I use the LMI white, because of its longer working time, but its more crystaline nature when dry. Seems a perfect application. Use the HHG everywhere else on the top.

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Hey...I'm still trying to get over the mood swing!

I just pulled out a guitar, plucked a low E string and felt the sides. Low and behold...they vibrate like crazy. To my way of thinking the sides are in the sonic circuit...either from the top transferring energy to the sides or the internal sound waves banging on the them. In either case it seems like the sides have some contribution to music. And consequently, if I feel that HHG is more sonically active then it should be better than a glue that is less active.

I suppose we could add a rubber gasket to the kerfed linings should it be important to decouple the top from the sides and would be interested in hearing the results of such experiments.

That's about as far as I can take this thinking. I'm hoping that Alan C. or some other sonic physicists csn chime in and peel this onion even further. We probably all agree that this has the equivalent theoretical impact as arguing about "how many angels can fit onto the tip of a needle". But it's a cold snowy Saturday and I can think of nothing better to do than to try to move the body of knowledge further with my bros!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I believe in the sides adding their thing. But I'm not overly concerned with a wee bit 'o glue shielding the sides from the top. Plus, I "see" the sides being powered from within, not from above. By that, i mean that I think that the sides don't get their energy(that vibration0 from the top, directly, but instead, from all the sound energy that is inside the soundbox, shaking everything.

Sort of how not all the sound we hear come through our ear canal. A lot of it comes via our bone structure... 


If I felt like arguing every cold snowy day we have up here, boy, I'd be a Grumpy 'ol codger, now would I... Whao! Wait.... retract! Ratract!

Edit!



























Where's the f*#@&ng edit button....

Arghh.... more snow....



 Where's the updated software? Why's this damned site so slow to load?

Cold? Ack!

The button. Must....have....the button...

Tracy, can you give me any more info about the bridge coming off? Did wood come with it? Did the glue stick to the top and not the bridge. No extenuating circumstances? Fresh glue?

JJ, the sides, the linings, and to my complete surprise, even the bindings effect sound.

I put a series of test tops I on my test body a couple of years ago and was taking each of them to another builder for some more objective ears. I was leaving the tops unbound because it just seemed like a waste of time. He convinced me to bind one and listen for changes. I was amazed at the difference. Same guitar, just added binding and it had a much tighter sound with more high overtones. I'm going to play with it some more in January but the explanation that makes the most sense to me at this point is that the binding does produce more coupling between the sides to the top.

On still another topic, are some of you actually heating parts to extend the working time of HHG? How can you control the humidity that way? If I put a 100 watt light anywhere near a top laying on a workbench, the top starts to curl in a minute or two. If I put a hygrometer under the light, the humidity drops 5-10%. Doesn't make sense to me to be careful of humidity control only to drastically change it at the most critical time.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Warm the part, not the area.... Use a hair dryer for 40 seconds to warm the rim(not the top) and nothing moves.

I've never had anything move, even a bit. But, then again, I only warm things enough to give me a few seconds extra; someone else may just fall asleep with the hair dryer in their hand and then comlain that I told them to use a hair dryer and now all their hard work is ruined <sigh>

f&*%$#ng edit button.... I'm ready to jumop ship 'til the new forum's up...

On the bind and tap tone front. That's a well know phenomena that many have noticed...

I warm some parts too in order to extend the working time of my HHG.  These include the bridge and bridge plate.  For me it is pop it in a 200 degree oven for perhaps 2 minutes and I stand there the entire time.  I would be concerned about drying out the part too but when I pull them out they are not to hot to hold, just nicely warm, and have not had enough time to heat up inside.

I can't agree that bindings impact tone.......  But I will give you that an unbound box leaks like crazy and kills all the punch and most of the tone of the box.  Put bindings back on it and the tone and punch is back.  I would challenge anyone to prove that there is an audible correlation between different typically used wood bindings and tone.  I also doubt that any one could tell the difference between plastic bindings and wood bindings tone wise either.  But again, against no bindings with exposed or very thin kerfs present - big difference.

Kent...I heat things with a hair dryer. I heat bridges, braces and small parts in a microwave. Some lay their parts on a warming tray or under a heat lamp.

I believe moderation is the key here. I would never want the surface temp to exceed 130* because above that temp it causes pain to handle...use that as a guide. I'm sure that as quickly as the wood loses moisture, it re-hydrates just as quickly once it reaches ambient temperature.

Mario...we all know that sound travels more efficiently through a solid rather than through the air. Why then do you believe that the sides are powered more from within? It seems logical that if the sound starts at the saddle, bridge plate, bracing, top that it would travel through solid wood more powerfully to the sides than from energy through the air inside of the box. While I agree that the air pressure has an effect, I would argue that the transmission trough the top has a greater effect. What am I missing?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

On the bind and tap tone front. That's a well know phenomena that many have noticed...

Sorry to waste your time with old news...

Yes I've heard a lot of people talk about the phenomena and so far as most people go, it's just that, an unexplained phenomena.

Have you ever actually listened to the difference it makes on a strung up guitar? What's the cause? How would you go about taking advantage of any effect or eliminating any disadvantage? What else can we learn based on that?

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http://www.chassonguitars.com