Official Luthiers Forum!

Are these the "Chinese Import" guitars that I've heard about?
Is discussion here taboo?

What gives? Anyone know? They sure are inexpensive.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don don't know why would be taboo. I don't know where come from. I went to the Tulsa Guitar House a few years ago and was interested in buying a solid wood guitar. The manager and probably now owner commented they were the best solid wood for the price he had ever come across. He recommended them highly. I playe one of them and it felt and sounded great. Now one must remember I cannot play. A friend of mine of mine who is a real player and makes pretty good money at it, played it and bought one. He used it several years until he took the one I built at Galloup and used it for a long time. Got a nice pre amp out of the deal when got it back, along with many dings from stages and not sure want to know what else. I bought one of the OM's and gave it to a grandson for lessons. He sold it to his teacher after I built him the coco seen on zootmans site. I think they are a really nice guitar for getting a solid wood at an affordable price. Just my opinion and experience here with them and that isn't worth to much

I'd pretty much have to agree with Stan. I don't own one, and I haven't played any extensively, but I have played a few at Fullers Guitars here in Houston. For the price, they are amazing. They sound as good as they look. I was told this -- I dunno for sure -- but I was told that this Chinese factory has all the benefits of modern CNC technology, and that the construction and assembly process has been highly automated. Mebbe so. But they also have the rather big benefit of a workforce that works cheaply, but which has a tradition of quality hand craftsmanship that dates back several thousand years. Don't let a lot of the "junk" you see coming out of China fool you. The Chinese are capable of building very high quality stuff when they want.

Best,

Michael
Michael McBroom38654.4681712963

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Live to Play, Play to Live

I was told and most certainly do not know for sure that the same factory that is building "Crafter's" for Honner is building them. But I have nothing to back this up.

In Europe we get Blueridge and they are fairly highly rated, someone told me they make them in both Korea and China, and that the Korean instrument are better.

These guitars are made in China by Saga Musical Instruments out of California.

Well I was curious enough about these guitars to buy one on eBay this summer. I wanted to see what the future of this business was. I picked up an all solid wood mahogany dred BR-140 which is their Martin D-18 copy. I got it for $400.00 and kept it for about two months before turning around and reselling it for a bit more than I paid.

All I can say is that for $400.00, we would all be out of business, including Martin and Gibson if we had to compete directly in this market. It had top grade wood, nice silky sitka top and gorgeous quarter sawn mahogany. The saddle and nut were bone. Very nice workmanship for factory; as good as Martin and better than my ‘90s Gibson. To top it all off, the sound was wonderful; full and loud and ringing. A great Bluegrass dreadnaught sound.

On the negative side: Only a one year warranty. The tuners were super cheap. Plastic pegs. The nut wasn’t glued in. The saddle, I think, was glued right over the finish. The string spacing was a way too tight. The saddle was uncompensated. They use epoxy on the dovetail joint, I am told, so forget about ever getting a neck reset. The wood is quite thin, like vintage Martins, so I don’t know about durability.

For about $50 in parts and a few hours work, you could have a top notch guitar.

How do they offer them so cheap? Also, I understand that there factory puts them out in under 10 hours and the wages average 60 cents and hour. So for $6 in labor and a one year warranty, you can put out a nice guitar for pretty cheap.

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

Hey Don,

    Drop by the Emporium. We've usually got a few different models
on hand. I like 'em. The Eastmans are from China too. Every
shipment seems to be a little bit better in quality than the last.

The Blueridges are getting good reviews in national mags. Seems like the Chinese have accomplished in under ten years what it took the Japanese twenty to thirty years to achieve in terms of quality. It seems like EVERYTHING is coming from China now, and much of it is well built. They still can't beat an individual-luthier constructed instrument yet, though!

They have lots of inlay on the models I've seen. They sound good but they still don't match Martin or the big names. So they are not going to cut into the private luthier market yet. I believe a handmade instrument sounds better then most factory models. Our customers are looking for handmade quality instruments, so I am not concerned about the flooding of instruments from other sources. If you go into a local guitar shop there is enough guitars on the wall to make you wonder why anyone would want to start building guitars. Yet, there are those who want our creations. Even if we would rather keep them all. So keep building and enjoying the fruit of our labour.

Yet if you start a guitar shop make sure you have some of those Blueridge Guitars on hand for the people who desire that price and quality of a guitar. Kepp smiling.

[QUOTE=Ron Priest] They sound good but they still don't match Martin or the big names.
[/QUOTE]

Don't match a Martin in sound? I have to disagree on that point. We did a lot of blind listening test between the Blueridge and new or newer D-18s and the Blueride equaled or surpassed them in sound. Same with workmanship except were I noted.

Now that ugly ugly banjo style inlay on the headstock is another issue. Scott Thompson38654.6942013889

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

I've owned one. Got rid of it because, well, guitars come and go when you're afflicted that way...but I'd own another one in a heartbeat - and might. I agree with the earlier poster who says that they easily match the Martin sound. Most Blueridge guitars sound very good; some sound downright great. Now, I'm not implying in any manner that a Blueridge has the fit/finish or even casually observable build quality that a luthier built, or even high-end factory produced guitar does. That WOULD be a stretch. But a $400 dollar guitar that sounds as good as they do? Yes, it's an exceptional deal if that's all your budget level can afford, and a GREAT deal if you're looking for a low priced, good sounding, decent "beater" level, or entry level, guitar. More money can buy more tone, etc., but these aren't bad guitars at any price level.

In fact, Bryan Sutton made the comment recently on his website that the Blueridge 240 was superior to any $1000 guitar he's ever played, and outplayed most $2000 guitars he's played. And he's a Bourgeois endorsee, IBMA guitar player of the year, leading Nashville session player, etc. and can play anything he wants. More money can buy more tone, etc., but these aren't bad guitars at any price level.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I originally posted a comment that was related to Chinese guitars and the economics relating to such on the American guitar industry. Some members tookn offense to my comments and thought I was being racist. I was not. Unfortunately only a narrow minded person would misinterpret my meaning.
Therefore I retracted the comments from this Forum, regretfully!!

There is no freedom of speech here on the OLF! What a shame!

WalterWalterK38655.6877777778

If I bought one ( I would have to be highly medicated first) I would promptly smash into a thousand pieces.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Amazing coinkydink! Not thirty seconds before I happened upon this topic I was making a mental note to google Blueridge. I nearly bought one almost ten years ago, but was laid off at the time and couldn't quite swing the $360 it was going to cost. My beginner model came three years ago (just restrung it tonight)- a Martin DX1R. The only solid woods on the thing are the top, braces, and kerfed linings. Back and sides are hpl made to look like Indian Rosewood. Fretboard and bridge are black Micarta, the saddle white Micarta. The nut is white Corian and the neck is a 30 layered laminate. I paid $531 with tax and case (generic). I like the sound and the aroma (cedar linings?) got me thinking I wanted to build my own!!!!!!

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DES - Shepherd, MI

The reason I brought this topic up was that some folks at the ASIA symposium were talking about the Chinese instruments that are starting to come in that are dirt cheap and of very good quality. It sounds like all the U.S./Canadian manufacturers could be in some trouble in years to come. It seems like slave labor is the way to get things done in this world. Too bad. As a rule we should stop all such products at the borders. But when you think about it, the driving forces behind it are American companies, exploiting the substandard wages in desperate nations. Shame on us.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don. You should read / listen to a book called "The World Is Flat", by Thomas Friedman it is a recent best seller.

The author has a lot of good points about how America will need to adjust to China, India, and other countries as they attempt to join the 1st world economies. Protectionism is pretty clearly not the answer -- but he is sensitive to the disruption this will cause to our businesses (and workers).

It is a pretty facinating book if you think / care about stuff like this.

Brock Poling38655.3685300926

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Don Williams] The reason I brought this topic up was that some folks at the ASIA symposium were talking about the Chinese instruments that are starting to come in that are dirt cheap and of very good quality. It sounds like all the U.S./Canadian manufacturers could be in some trouble in years to come. It seems like slave labor is the way to get things done in this world. Too bad. As a rule we should stop all such products at the borders. But when you think about it, the driving forces behind it are American companies, exploiting the substandard wages in desperate nations. Shame on us.[/QUOTE]

Not sure that the "slave labour" thing is really true - always gets trotted out though. The same was said when the Koreans were building ships. I think (as I don't know all the facts) that what is going on in China is similar to the Korean thing - a big investment in the new technology (CNC machines etc), a keen desire to modernise and learn, and a pride in what they do. The wages, I suspect, for China are very good indeed (similar situation in the Indian call centres). They will learn as they go too and quality will improve. I suspect the American and Canadian mass builders will have to keep a very close eye indeed on this "competition" and adapt accordingly to keep pace - after all competition is what drives Western markets. Then again you could always slap on import quotas, taxes etc.

Walter - Traditional Chinese stringed instruments are very different from Western ones and many have lots of strings. Their musical culture goes way back before the dawn of Western civilisations, and though not to everyones tastes its is highly developed. Listen to "Music for the Motherless Child" where Wu Man and Martin Simpson play together.

Just my 2c in what can be a very emotive subject area.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Dave White, Good post. You saved me some typing this morning.

Whatever the cause and effect, it is the reality of what the industry is facing. Most of those here that make or try to make a living at this aren't selling to the low end beginner's market so no worries, huh?

Thanks for the recommendation, Brock. Scott Thompson38655.4961921296

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Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

Brock,
There was an interesting news piece today on one of the Sunday morning news programs, and they talked about how one major US manufacturer (I forget which) just went bankrupt. The reporter also mentioned that the big 3 auto manufacturers are all in trouble here as well, and that the biggest reason is probably because of the unions and the high wages and expensive benefits that the labor is getting. He eluded to the fact that low-skilled laborers are living like middle income folks as a result of the unions, but it is killing the manufacturers in the long run. Basically, they said that eventually the companies will go belly up, or the labor would have to get a lot cheaper for them to survive. Interesting how the global economy is starting to squeeze the US economy.Don Williams38655.4990625

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Wow. Those are some pretty amazing comments about Chinese
people. "Monkey see...monkey do!!"?? You've got to be kidding.

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Brock,
There was an interesting news piece today on one of the Sunday morning news programs, and they talked about how one major US manufacturer (I forget which) just went bankrupt. The reporter also mentioned that the big 3 auto manufacturers are all in trouble here as well, and that the biggest reason is probably because of the unions and the high wages and expensive benefits that the labor is getting. He eluded to the fact that low-skilled laborers are living like middle income folks as a result of the unions, but it is killing the manufacturers in the long run. Basically, they said that eventually the companies will go belly up, or the labor would have to get a lot cheaper for them to survive. Interesting how the global economy is starting to squeeze the US economy.[/QUOTE]


Yes. I understand these situations are hard -- and I know just how hard this hits the guys that are on the line twisting a wrench. My dad was a truck driver, and I am in tune to the union / blue color struggle.

However, when you look at the car companies there is no such thing as an "American" vs. "foreign" car company any more. They are all so interconnected and they all have manufacturing facilities throughtout the world. With a little reserach you might find that a Honda is more "American" than a "Chevy" (I don't know that for certain.. but it illustrates my point and situations like that *DO* exist). It can be deceptive.

Thomas Friedman's thinking was that our failures are not so much from our costs of labor but a failure to add value to commody (or at worst "mature") products. He specifically discusses the auto industry and his two main complaints of the auto industry are a lack of innovation / design (clearly something GM is suffing from) and missed opportunities in terms of striking a sweet spot and conquering the alternative fuels issue.

If GM developed a high output engine that used alternative fuels they could either license the technology to every other car manufacturer or produce engines for a number of other car companies. And that would be a re-birth of their industry -- or at least a big step in the right direction for them.

So, yes, technically the cost of labor is a problem. But it is our global economic reality. His point is that we need to advance the game not try to play in this new environment.

And he has lots of other counter intuitive stats that show that as these other economies emerge (using Japan as a specific historical example) it helps the growth of our own economy.

It is a good book... you should check it out. It is a pretty balanced look at the economics of the new world.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Yeah, I'm a long way from being Chinese, but those comments offended me.
American greed is what puts many out of business.   I don't think the custom market will be affected, mostly mass producers. This country has lost a lot of business because we haven't learned to compete. We've never really had to.

Rom

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

For those of you that were offended by my comments... I apologize!! It's not a racial question or issue. It's an economic problem.
You just don't see the BIG picture.
You're not alone..Neither does our government!!

Walter

Comming from a Multi racial family, a number of comments made in this thread have offended me. At the same time I realize that often people make racist comments and slurs without even knowing it. Comming from an area of the world where our Local economy has been devasted by illegal American Protectionism I side with the Chinese. They are producing good enty level guitars. We have to look at where we can do better than them and concentrate on tha area. I've been asked by a few Music stores if I could produce a good guitar for them for under $1000. My answer is always no. We can't compete with Asia in that Market but when it comes to highend hand crafted guitars we do just fine. The big companies will probably get in trouble though unless they start putting a lot more personal; touches in.

I hope my comments didn't offend anyone, as they were not intended to be disrespectful, except perhaps to the American companies that go to other countries and encourage the use of unfair labor practices, i.e. paying ridiculously low wages. I think American corporations are justified at times for seeking labor that is lower than what unions have forced on them here, but at the same time there's no excuse for doing business with companies that exploit child labor and give horrible wages to their employees. Perhaps it's a warning to American labor that the econmy is global, and we may have to settle for lower wages in the future to have jobs at all. Look at the steel industry here...

Hey Walter, seriously...I understand what you meant, but still, you should go back and edit that post. We all respect everyone else here, but your comments were a little harsh, and showed less respect for the Chinese than they deserved.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."