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Part of the Romanillos Guitar Making Course that I attended that I described elsewhere was Jose Romanillos' contention that like Torres he believes that the wood used for the top of the guitar is the single most critical factor in building a great guitar...

First a great quote I got from Jose Romanillos which is similar to Alan Carruth's quote about the making a great guitar is all about small but important differences, Jose said, "The difference between a good guitar and a great guitar is marginal, but obvious".

Jose came around to each builder and evaluated each top. Each builder was asked to bring at least one extra top. Jose then compared the tops, commented on what he liked or didnt like about each one and then said which one the builder should build from.

Several people brought tops that were already surfaced or sanded...Jose said that this makes it much harder to evaluate as it does not show as readily the true quality of the wood. Likewise when people had tops that made very tight close grain, he said that it was also hard to evaluate as too tight a grain can actually weaken the top's stiffness cross grain as the narrower grain gives more than wider grain.

What he looked for was medium width grain, not too extreme on either end of the range, and for it to be as vertical as possible with as long a fiber as possible. The long grain means that the wood can be taken thinner without losing as much strength than wood with runout that has far less strength.

Just to be provocative and because I knew just how critical Jose was about top wood, I brought a 30 year old set of German Spruce which was nice and lightweight but not super stiff AND a AAA top of Lutz Spruce that I won as part of the 2005 ASIA symposium auction that came from Shane of High Mountain (an OLF sponsor)!!

What I was hoping was that because it was stated to bring either European Spruce or Englemann that Jose would not have seen Lutz Spruce. Just as I had "gamed it", Jose took one look at the Lutz versus German and said, "I dont know what it is but that is the top to build with...the other is okay but the other is probably special"!

Note that Jose's opinion is that he would rather have a 3+ piece top of awesome wood than have any part of the top weaker, just because it was a pretty top. Because of this I knew that it didnt have to be "master" grade...many of the high quality HAA or AAA tops are great tops that just dont have the looks to be graded master. The tops I had from Shane were excellent but not master and they didnt need to...what I like about the lutz spruce is the long fiber to the grain and that it is nice and stiff across the grain without being heavy.

When Jose evaluates the top he first looks at the rough sawn grain and fibers sticking up for consistency and evenness across the width of the piece. If the look of the grain shifts then the stiffness will also be different. He rubs across the coarse long fibers to listen to the sound of how the wood sounds, not by tap tone but rather the sound of how stiff the wood is. This would not be possible on a sanded or surfaced board.

Runout is also something he rejects no matter how nice the piece looks which is why most Englemann gets voted down. Englemann tends to twist quite a bit so that run out is an issue with alot of Englemann (not all).

Once the top is to be worked on he then evaluates how thick or thin to plane the top based on the stiffness across the grain and the length of the fiber in the top. The difference between 2.5 and 2.8mm can make a really big difference in the final sound and resonance of the guitar.

Some very interesting things to think about...

Note there is no historic precedent for using Western Red Cedar or any other wood than Spruce in Spanish Classical guitars so Spruce is the only wood measured and evaluated by Jose. He believes that when Ramirez introduced WRC into spanish guitars they were moving away from the historic standard, to its detriment.

Shawn

Excellent post and an extremely interesting insight, the more you tell us the more I have the urge to head for Spain !

RussellR38951.7442824074

Shawn...nice move to bring the Lutz!

Hey Shane! Endorsed by Jose Romanillos!!! Send him a couple and get it in writing!

[QUOTE=CarltonM] Shawn...nice move to bring the Lutz!

Hey Shane! Endorsed by Jose Romanillos!!! Send him a couple and get it in writing! [/QUOTE]

Shawn called on Sunday and he and I talked. It was an absolute delight to have Shawn give me this news. My wife was dragging me out the door at the time so we didn't get too long to talk but his story sure helps me realize how important paying attention to the details is. Shawn did also say that a Bosnian set that was there was well liked by Romanillos. I have long perported that I think good spruce is good spruce. If a good cutter has good trees and does a good job then the product will be good, it doesn't matter what species he uses. Take anyone of those three elements out of the mix and you have not honoured the life of one of earth's most noble beings. The information that Shawn (and Joshua) have shared with us will certainly help me to keep the concentration level high when processing tops and should help all of us (including me) that build understand that a fine guitar is the sum of all of the little things that go into it and it is very difficult to know the importance of each step, so do them all well.

Thanks for sharing Shawn!! We will talk some more about this.

Oh ya Carlton, Shawn is already on that!

ShaneShane Neifer38951.7350578704

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Canada

This makes me even happier since I recently bought 10 of Shanes Lutz tops

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Shawn,

I'm really happy to read that you brought one of Shane's Lutz tops along and that it got the nod over Euro spruce from Maestro Romanillos. This confirms what I've been saying for over a year, after building my first Lutz-topped classical. I love the stuff, and what I've bought from Shane so far is simply awesome wood.

Too bad really that Romanillos feels the way he does about WRC. The bias toward spruce is widespread among the classical community, but I believe it to be unfortunate and largely unfounded. I have heard and played too many beautiful sounding classicals with WRC tops (including a Ramirez 1a I owned for over 30 years) to simply reject them out of hand.

Then again, I'm sure Romanillos has developed his own signature sound, if you will, and no doubt this sound can be achieved only with a great sounding spruce top.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

Shawn, that might just be the most important post in the forum's history! Thanks for that, I will look at my tops differently from now on. I've got a fabulous piece of Shane's lutz which I shall have to spend some time fondling!

Thanks again Shawn, you will have to make this a regular series of posts!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Wise words as always Colin

That is very useful information Shane. Thanks for sharing. I too have a bunch of Shane's Lutz tops and I can hardly wait to use them!

I used one and used it for no 2, i'm no way an expert on describing sound but i know this, my Lutz topped no 2 is the loudest Dread i've ever played, i really admired that top throughout my build and i'm proud to own another set that will be used for Sergio's guitar here! Will definitely buy more of that in the future!

Shane, you got the top's top notch!

Serge you are a funny guy...you always makin' me smile!

Thanks my friend.

Shane

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Canada

Shane, i was serious dude! If good enough for Romanillos, good enough for Sergio's!

thanks Shawn for some very interseting info.. I believe In Benidettos book he actually recommended 18-22 lines per inch as the general rule for the best sounding tops. Which i believe would be in the middle of the range as far as lpi is concerned... Always surprised me when the master grade tops are usually so much finer grained.
Mike

Thanks for taking to time to post this info Shawn, it is very interesting.

I have 10 of Shane's tops coming my way in the near future (along with some blackwood), it will be very interesting to see how it compares with other spruces I'm more familiar with.

Like Russel, all this info fuels the urge to head for Spain, hmmm...

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Has High Mountain Tonewoods gone public yet?
I think I want some of their stock...

Great Kudos for Shane's wood.
At least the one set anyway...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I bought some of this stuff from Robbie during a class group buy (I'm betting he wish he didn't sell so much of it now!) Now I have to just get building and see what I can make of it.

You know, I want to leave work now and go to my stash so I can check this stuff out a bit more closely!

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Has High Mountain Tonewoods gone public yet?
I think I want some of their stock...

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I second that. In our small corner of the world I think demand might out pace supply of Shane's wood pretty quick!

That was an excellent post. Quite informative! I really enjoyed reading that, and feel I've gained a little more critical info. So much to be learned here.
Thanks for posting that Shawn.

I think Shane has it right...good spruce is good spruce. The same tree cut poorly, sawn not split or even felled in the wrong time of year could give very different results when it comes to the tonewood we look for when building guitars. That is part of why I appreciate that Shane and other sponsors take steps to offer us the best quality at a very competitive price.

The key to good spruce is to get it from a reliable source with access to good supply. When "German" spruce was becoming scarce people got used to spruce that was less than quartersawn or had runout. From tonewood dealers (like Shane and the rest of our OLF sponsors) when they rate a top a high grade that it is worth the additional price of over a lower grade set...if the top is the biggest contributor to sound then a great top is muich better than 10 poorer tops. In general the tops I have recieved from our sponsors have been conservative in their ratings and are in almost every case a better grade than the large factories are putting into their instruments.Shawn38952.6132291667

Shane goes to great lengths to get great trees for top woods.
I've gotten 50 tops from him in the last year ranging from A to AAA and they all were great tops!No run out ,lite in weight(most important)and great cost!
I just displayed a Lutz topped Flamenco guitar at the Newport Guitar Festival and other makers were amazed at the quality of the top !Silky as all hell and responsive to the touch of the player.Shane has also been great to deal with and sells other woods & tool also.
Good work Shane
Mike Collins

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Mike Collins

Too bad really that Romanillos feels the way he does about WRC. The bias toward spruce is widespread among the classical community, but I believe it to be unfortunate and largely unfounded. I have heard and played too many beautiful sounding classicals with WRC tops (including a Ramirez 1a I owned for over 30 years) to simply reject them out of hand.


Michael
[/QUOTE]

Just my two cents (actually, a penny): re. WRC, what Jose' told me was a lot simpler (back in 2004); that he made a couple of guitars with WRC and they did not turn out well--made it sound more like a personal matter of taste.
In his book 'Things About Guitar' Ramirez compares PA to a blond and WRC to a brunette, and professes his preference for a brunette, not that he does not like blonds. One of instructors at the Romanillo course, G. Oldiges, mentioned that a guitar made with WRC well before Ramirez's time was found; therefore, Ramirez may or may not have been the first luthier to use WRC (I personally know of no such proof or evidence.)

Jose also said to me that his main point regarding non-spruce tops was that there is no historical precedent in 450 years of Vihuelas that evolved into the Spanish guitar for non-spruce tops and that any guitar with a non-spruce top is a different instrument and should be evaluated as such. Jose is promoting the Spanish guitar specifically, not classical guitars in general.

I have not heard any negative comments from him on WRC topped guitars other than that they do not sound like Spanish guitars. The only negative comments that I heard from him about another builders style of classical guitar was the he did not understand the rationale behind the veneer thin tops of Smallman school guitars...

As far as Ramirez is concerned, supposedly Ramirez IV only built about 5 instruments in his lifetime and was instead the business manager of Ramirez. His book is not entirely accurate historically but very interesting to read. His contribution to Lutherie was more about his ability to create a marketing brand and to drive interest for classical guitars in the 60's and 70's when most of the spanish guitar industry was languishing. As far as the success of Ramirez guitars in that period, it is much more a factor of the guitar luthiers that came from the Ramirez shop and less about the design of the ramirez guitars (all my opinion).

Shawn,

Excellent post! I have to agree about evaluating wood in the rough... was Jose still using that microscotpe thing to look into the endgrain?

One thing in my notes, is that Jose stated that sound travels 4 times as fast along the grain than across it. He also purchased and fell trees in Yugoslavia in 1971, and that once you get through enough of the soundboards to gain some real understanding of the tree you're working from, you've basically used them all up.

I'm in agreeent with your last post regarding Ramirez and WRC. It is a different guitar - not what I think of when I think of a Spanish guitar (Torres, Santos, etc). Some great makers came from Ramirez.

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At this point, I'm wondering if my definition of the sound of a "Spanish guitar" is the same as others. If there was ever an example for the word "ineffable" this would be it. I know what it is (to me), but I can't really describe it, other than to say there is a certain warmth in the midrange that I associate with this sound. Perhaps it's because of my own experiences, having owned a cedar-topped Ramirez for so many years, having played other outstanding cedar-topped guitars, like a friend's Contreras. And seeing and hearing performers like Segovia and Parkening playing Ramirezes. Maybe I associate cedar with the sound more than I do spruce, I dunno. Not saying I don't like the sound of spruce classicals, though. I like them just as much. Of the guitars I've built, my current favorite has a Euro spruce top, built in the Hauser tradition, though, which really isn't the Spanish school. Of the guitars I've heard up close and personal, my favorite is still the churchdoor Rodriguez (Euro spruce top) that Pepe Romero was playing during the mid-70s. That guitar, instead of having the warmth I associate with Ramirez, had a brilliance in both the trebles and bass that was astounding.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

Michael,

The Torres book and also the interview with Pepe Romero on the GSI site have pretty good explanations on the Spanish sound. I agree that it is difficult to describe. I would make an attempt in saying that a true spanish guitar is flamboyant and responsive almost to the point of being uncontrollable, which is something that has much to do with its character - but also that each note has its own unique voice and nuances, great separation and nothing sounding subdued.

When most are referring to the "Spanish sound" they are speaking of Ramirez. Maybe this is the "new" Spanish sound, but compared to Torres, Garcia and Santos it is very different. A good place to start is "Masterpieces of Guitarmaking" by Stefono Grondona and Luca Waldner - the CD there has several Torres, a couple Hausers, a Garcia, a Simplicio, at least one Santos.

The Torres are remarkable - head and shoulders above the Hausers (Some who know Hausers intimately will say that he never achieved the Spanish sound) and the only thing coming close is the Santos. The Garcia is a remarkable guitar, but slightly different sounding. PM me on here, I'll send you an MP3 of my favorite.

Personally, I've never heard a cedar guitar I would say is "great". Some good ones, to be sure, but not a great one. The best Ramirez 1A I've every played was a '71. It was powerful and clear, but it lacked much of what I consider a great guitar to have. In fact, it was one selected by Christopher Parkening from our pals at Sherry-Brenner (ha) for one of his students - which was later confirmed by parkening in a letter. Parkening himself sounds very nice on a Ramirez both live and on CD, but no where near as good as Grondona on a Torres.

A genuine Torres live leaves a lasting impression.

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