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WaddyThomson

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:26 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 am
Posts: 9191
Location: United States
First name: Waddy
Last Name: Thomson
City: Charlotte
State: NC
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]Waddy welcome to the OLF!!!

Somehow with a name like Diesel I am not sure if I want to rub it in all over my guitar but I could get over it....

Good info and again welcome to the best guitar building forum on the planet![/QUOTE]

Thanks Hesh! Glad to be here. This place is incredible. I have learned a ton in the last couple of weeks, reading all the posts, and searchnig through the archives. What an amazing abundance of good information. I got some "zoot" from the "Zootman" (What a guy!), and have been trying to clean up a shop that had become a storage room (poorly organized), with the distraction of wanting to start my first build. Working on a neck and splitting brace stock (ugh!) for a classical.

Waddy

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Waddy

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WaddyThomson

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:40 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 am
Posts: 9191
Location: United States
First name: Waddy
Last Name: Thomson
City: Charlotte
State: NC
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro

I think that Mulburn Tutorial on French Polishing is highly informative. I noticed that he left options on filling or not filling the neck. What are some of the preferences, and why? I also noticed that some of you use an oil finish on necks. I know it would matter greatly to some players. Probably not me. I know my son takes the finish off the back of his Strat necks.

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WaddyThomson

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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:58 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 am
Posts: 9191
Location: United States
First name: Waddy
Last Name: Thomson
City: Charlotte
State: NC
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro

Does Danish Oil harden to a glasslike finish, or does it leave a softer flatter (like a semigloss) type finish. It would seem to me, in my limited knowledge, that a flatish finish would be "faster" than a very glossy surface, though maybe not as eye-catching. Speed not being an issue at my skill level.

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j.Brown

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:35 am

Koa

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:10 pm
Posts: 778
Location: Madison, WI

I would go back to an earlier recommendation on getting Robbie O'Brien's finishing DVD. HIGHLY effective and easy to understand. It covers many different methods of finishing, but the french polishing section is a perfect step by step on his refined method. You can finish a guitar in a single day with Robbie's method.
-j.

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JJ Donohue

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:02 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:50 pm
Posts: 4662
Location: Napa, CA

[QUOTE=j.Brown] You can finish a guitar in a single day with Robbie's method.
-j.[/QUOTE]

I love Robbie's DVD, but it still takes me a week to FP a guitar. The pore filling alone takes 2 days for me.

Part of my problem with FP is actually knowing when "I'm done"!

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Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

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JohnAbercrombie

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:21 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur

[QUOTE=j.Brown] I would go back to an earlier recommendation on getting Robbie O'Brien's finishing DVD. HIGHLY effective and easy to understand. It covers many different methods of finishing, but the french polishing section is a perfect step by step on his refined method. You can finish a guitar in a single day with Robbie's method.
-j.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps my DVD is different, but the illustrations/video I've seen concentrate on the back of the guitar, which is by far the easiest part to FP. Ribs, neck, around soundhole, along fingerboard (for a classical), etc all seem to be conveniently ignored (or mentioned in passing) in most of the material.

Also, the 'straight-line gentle swipes' method has its detractors- some folks maintain that lots of pressure (in circles?) is necessary to produce a hard finish. I'd say the jury is still 'out' on this.

For me it's all theory now, since there's no way I can spend many hours (20? or more?) of hand work finishing a guitar. Even if my elbow could stand it (it can't), my brain can't.
It's the spray gun, wet sanding and the buffer for me.

Cheers
John

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KenH

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:03 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida

Here is an update on my progress:

My order for more pumice from LMI finally arrived as well as the bottles of Macguiars #7 and #9 which I got from the local NAPA auto parts store.

I pumiced the whole back of the guitar again, this time using more liberal amounts of pumice. Using a very small circular motion and pressing very hard, I rubbed down the whole back of the guitar until I could no longer hear the rough spots in the surface.

After this, I cleaned up the surface using a clean cloth with just a hint of olive oil and solvent until I got the dried haze of pumice off of the surface. This was then sanded using 800 grit sand paper soaked in olive oil and using olive oil as a lubricant and sanded the whole surface until most of the olive oil was dry and there was a shine to the surface.

Next came a couple of sessions of mostly solvent with very little shellac in it applied in circular strokes until the surface was dry and shining again.

This was allowed to dry (harden?) overnight and this morning I started using the macguiars #9 to polish out the guitar. The# 9 has some abrasiveness to it, so this helped remove any slight imperfections and miniscule scratch marks that had remained. I then finished up with a session of Macguiars #7 abd buffed the guitar until there was a gleaming shine with no imperfections at all in it.

THIS is the finish and look I had been hoping for !!

Now if I can protect this surface while I get the top and sides looking this good, I should be good to go with this finishing job.

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Reguards,

Ken H

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j.Brown

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:42 am

Koa

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:10 pm
Posts: 778
Location: Madison, WI

Minus the pore filling, the single day FP can be done. It does take some experience, for sure, but it CAN be done.
-j.

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JohnAbercrombie

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:49 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]

No offense intended John my friend but Robbie's method and DVD work very well and probably hundreds of guitars have been finished with good results.

When I have finished with nitro I am sure that if you added up all my time spraying, prep, level sanding, preparing the spray booth, wet sanding, and slinging crap on me and the walls with the buffer that I probably had nearly 20 hours into the process.

FP to me is not something that I would ever compare to nitro and not only does it look differently people do FP for different reasons too. For me I felt that I needed to learn how to FP as part of my development as a builder and I could save some money too. I also love the look of FP when well done as well as I am attracted to the sonic superiority of FP too.

[/QUOTE]
Hesh-
I've said positive things about Robbie's DVD in the past. It's a great resource and well worth the money, overall.
Does he actually show how to FP the sides or neck of the guitar? If so, I missed it- sorry about that.

It's not the total time involved that concerns me - though I notice that even folks who say (like you) that they are following Robbie's method exactly are taking more than a day to complete the FP part of the finishing. For example, nitro needs quite a lot of 'hang time' between the various steps.
There's no way that I'm going to be able to do 20 hours of repetitive motion (without feeling it in a big way the next day, and the next week) to get a finish on a guitar. Apparently some pros quote 40 hours to put on a FP finish.(?!)There's a big difference (in wear and tear on my joints) between using a buffer or a ROS with an Abralon pad vs hand work.

I'd be interested in seeing the results of experiments comparing thin lacquer finishes to FP. Someone (sorry , I forget your name..) is doing just that and hopefully we will hear the results here in time. Perhaps the 'sonic superiority' of FP is due to the fact that it's so much easier to lay on too much lacquer?- just a thought.

Simon and Craig and others have commented on the need for hard pressure and circular motions while doing FP- I was referring to comments of that type. There's a huge range of published methods for doing FP, and it's hard to believe that they all produce the same end result, but perhaps the 'quicker' methods are just as good. My building is certainly not at the point where I can blame shortcomings in tone on the finish, so it's all theory for me.

Cheers

John

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j.Brown

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:53 am

Koa

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:10 pm
Posts: 778
Location: Madison, WI

[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie]

Also, the 'straight-line gentle swipes' method has its detractors- some folks maintain that lots of pressure (in circles?) is necessary to produce a hard finish. I'd say the jury is still 'out' on this.
[/QUOTE]

Both the Shellac and Olive Oil cycles are supposed to get heavier as the ammount of material on the muneca diminishes, getting heavier as you go along. More pressure is probably applied with circular motion in the oil step, as well as distributing the shellac a bit more evenly.
Thats how I've been doing it and I've had some great results.
-j.

_________________
“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
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JohnAbercrombie

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:49 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur

re: Comparing nitro and FP

It is Ken, the originator of this thread, who's doing the controlled test on finishes.
Thanks, Ken- I'm looking forward to the results!
Cheers
John

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KenH

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:13 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida

I know this guitar is nothing special, but just wanted to see if the shine of the french polishing job I have have completed will show up in pictures.

Here is the latest

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Ken H

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KenH

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:19 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida

By the way, this is a walnut back and side and italian spruce top guitar with a mahogany neck. Abalone rosette and herringbone purfling. that is a fish inlaid in the fingerboard.

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Reguards,

Ken H

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CarltonM

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:59 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3134
Location: United States

Hey, Ken, that looks mighty nice! And it passes the critical "read the poultry" test with flying (snicker!) colors!

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BruceH

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:51 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:25 am
Posts: 458
Location: Southern Ohio

WaddyT- Thanks for the Diesel tip. In what state are you getting it?

Also- I'm working on my fp skills right now also. Like some of you, I'm having a hard time knowing when to quit. (I live out in the sticks and have never seen a high-quality fp finish.) Last night I thought I was finished, but a close exam under certain lighting at certain angles revealed a few minor scratches from the buffing wheel. So I broke out the 3M Finesse-It (or was it the Perfect-It?) and promptly burned through in a half-dozen places. Aaaargh.

Back at it.

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WaddyThomson

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:36 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 am
Posts: 9191
Location: United States
First name: Waddy
Last Name: Thomson
City: Charlotte
State: NC
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro

Im in North Carolina. State ABC Stores. I could probably put my hands on some pretty good stuff that comes in Mason Jars, and avoid the tax, but I don't seem to have the right contacts...yet!

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Waddy

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BruceH

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:24 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:25 am
Posts: 458
Location: Southern Ohio

Thanks, Waddy. I may head that way during spring break.

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