Official Luthiers Forum!

Kristopher
   My first guitars suffered rejections of one sort or another. I had to learn to be compulsive the hard way. Just accept it as a challenge and fix what they criticize in the next guitar. Once you have reached a critical mass of guitars things change.
    
    You know the Navajo always made one mistake in weaving their blankets so as not to honor the gods. Your customer needs perspective.

Forgot to mention
   That is a BEAUTIFUL guitar. Truely is and if there are a few flaws (which I certainly cannot see) the fact that it is a work of art is not changed.

[QUOTE=terken] I would respectfully disagree with you on pricing Hesh. I think it is ridiculous for a builder that has only made 8-10 guitars to be charging over 3K for their instruments but you see it all the time. [/QUOTE] I hate to speak for Hesh, but I don't think he ever said that was a good thing.
However ridiculous you and I think that is, ultimately if the customer is willing to pay someone $3500 for someone's 8th guitar, who are you and I to say that is wrong? Silly of the customer, and a bit unethical for the builder for sure. But isn't it really up to them, not us?

BTW - I'm on my eighth guitar now, and I would not feel good about charging anywhere near that price.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

That is a fantastic looking guitar.  If you have to quit after building such a beautiful instrument, I guess I better give up right now!  You obviously have a huge amount of talent.  Take  the fact that the customer wanted to keep the instrument as a compliment.  Choose to believe that the criticism was intended to be constructive and use it as a tool for making your next one even better.  After all, there are people out there who think it is their lot in life to 'help' others by giving constructive criticism whether it is asked for or not!

Hesh, there was a lot of wisdom in that post!  Thanks for sharing it with us.

Do you guys find it interesting that nobody ever finds flaws in paintings or sculptures? What are we making here? Art. Made with our hands. Yet we're expected to make perfection. Humph...
Ok, off my soap box now.
That's a great looking guitar. One piece of advice that I might offer from my experience. Do whatever it takes to make the customer happy, not satisfied, but happy. It's not too late. You could contact him and say, "you know, I've been bothered by the fact that there was a flaw that stood out enough for you to notice it. If you send it back, I'll make it right." My guess is that that statement alone will make him HAPPY and he likely won't take you up on the offer. If he does, fine, fix the flaw and send it back. A happy customer will return and tell his friends. In the early stages of your building, that's the kind of PR you need.
The story that this comes from: when I sold an early guitar the client loved it but was having action problems. I didn't really want him to ship it back to me (I had just finished two insurance claims for broken guitars in shipping so I was a little on edge with shipping) so I cut him a new saddle that would be a touch higher. That made him feel good but he said it still buzzed a bit. I swallowed my fear and had him ship it back (on my bill) so I could take a look at it. He was in a very rural area so there was no repair guy anywhere near to take a look. When I got it back I saw a HUGE hump at the neck joint. It was GROSS and I still can't believe I overlooked it. I called him and fessed up to my error right away. I told him that I'd have to pull all the frets and re level the board then refret. It might take a bit but I assured him that I dropped everything else I was working on and he would have my full attention. It took me a couple of days to get it right and I sent it right back to him. He was ecstatic! I called a few weeks later to make sure he was still pleased and he couldn't get over how well it played. Bottom line: a little extra work went a long way on that one.

I can agree with both sides (thanks again for all the praise, my head is swelling as I type). If the customer has reservations about the instrument from the get go (i.e. why the heck is this guitar only $1200??), they may be more likely to scrutinize it *looking* for reasons why it is so inexpensive. On the other hand, it seems reasonable that a $10,000 classical guitar would be darn near perfect. But at the same time, they may be a concert performer and aesthetics are not that important to them.

My idea:::I initially started selling my guitars for the cost of wood as I considered my time to be very well spent in learning the trade...soon, I was unable to keep up with demand so I have been increasing the price according to demand (I try to keep about 3-4 folks on my list). I think this is called *supply and demand* !!! This has been working so far, but I feel the price is getting too high for my level of experience!!!

Another issue.. potential customers have no idea what my guitars sound like because they have never personally heard one. More than likely a customer will have heard (at some point) a guitar from a well known luthier and can decide then and there whether commissioning one would be a viable option. What do y'all do to solve this?? I know the return option is fair, but it seems like a lot of work is wasted if the customer could have ruled it out before having a guitar made. (that paragraph makes little to no sense, sorry )

Anyway, I am glad this is getting in depth...very helpful. You guys (and women) are awesome

Hi Paul, you are exactly right...I actually did exactly what you said earlier today. I told him that I was disappointed that he was not thrilled about the instrument. I told him that I would extend the 3 day return to a week. If he wanted to return it after 10 days, that would be fine too. He was very glad to hear this. Maybe I have been overlooking the relationship with my customer and focusing too much on my shortcomings. Y'all should be the therapists, not me. GOOD JOB

On your return option: I've got one too but you need to be a little careful. Your situation is a perfect one for abuse. Customer hasn't heard one of your guitars, orders one, isn't exactly what he was looking for, returns it, wants his full money back. There was nothing wrong with it, it just didn't have the sound he expected. Basically he has used you, your time, and your money so he could do a test drive. If I were you, I'd make sure you have a non-refundable deposit written into your contract (you do have a contract don't you?) to weed out these leeches of the earth.

You sound a little bitter Paul...I guess this is from personal experience???

I do have a contract (purchase agreement). What does that mean when you say "non-refundable"? Does that mean no matter what, or certain conditions apply?? You bring up a really good point Paul, about the abuse issue...we really do need to look after our selves and beware of the dreaded leeches

Kris,
   Don't quit. That is a beautiful guitar. The woods are very ice and are
nicely matched to one another and all of the appointments are very warm
and organic and provide a great transition contrast between the plates.

   Your workmanship looks very clean and seems to performed with skill
and great care. This a wonderful guitar....not even considering the fact
that it falls before your 10th one built.

    Customers need to be made aware of the fact that you're building your
guitars ad the finished product is the result of your experience and
development and design ideas....not those of another builder that they
may be comparing you to.

     Too many people who want an Olson or a Ryan, but are not ready or
able to drop the high dollar check to buy one, opt for a younger
upcoming builder with a few guitars under his belt and order something
from him. They choose the same woods as they would have their dream
Olson or Ryan built from and then compile a long list of options and
details and push the young builder to...and even beyond his capabilities
sometimes.

    When their "holy grail" is finally completed, they receive it and, many
times, complain about how the workanship, tone or playability aren;t
equal to that of the other guitars they've played costing three or four...or
even more....times as much.

   It's not fair to the builder and a refund is not an acceptable solution. If
the guitar reflects the best work of the builder who built it, it is a
reflection of his abilities. When the customer is paying $12,000.00 or
more for a guitar...complain away, but when they are commissioning an
instrument from a builder who is working hard to establish themselves
and are evolving into a more mature and skilled luthier with each
instrument they build, they need to appreciate the guitars and the heart
and soul that were poured into it as it was designed and built.


     I've talked to several well established builders who have expressed
their frustration with the snobby and almost condescending nature of a
good part of the guitar buying public....mostly the guys who think that
because they've played alot of high end guitars, they're experts on tone
and workmanship....that they want to build to spec and sell without the
commission process.

    It's sad that a few customers have made the commission process
something that builders want to get away from.

    On another note, I've seen guitars from deeply established builders
who are revered in lutherie circles whose work is much less attractive
then the guitar you showed us here. Nice work...don't let one customer
who needs prove their extensive understanding of guitar building
discourage you.

Keep up the great work,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Kris,

    I wanted to mention another thing and forgot in that last post.

    Tone is a subjective issue and should not be included in any warranty. I
say that with the simple understanding that a guitar should have
generally good tone if coming from a builder as the result of a
commission and being built from good quality materials.

     If a customer hasn;t played an instrument from the builder that they
are entering the commission contract with, there are special warranty
considerations concerning tone. As long as the guitar exhibits overall
good tone, response and volume and that tone reflects that inherent tonal
characteristics of the woods that are contibuting to it, the job of the
luthier has been completed as far as sound goes. It's unfair to take a
guitar from any builder and to reject it on the grounds of tone when it is a
representation of that particular builders effort to coax the most from the
woods as he can.

    As much as we;d love to achieve perfection every time we build a
guitar, it's impossible for any builder....yes....ANY builder. I've played
guitars from the most sought after luthiers in the world and have to say
that some have been incredible and others have been true duds. In every
case, though, their owners were thrilled with the guitars...more often
because they had the right logo or name on the headtsock than because
the owners even understood what made them great or less than great.

    I've heard guys tell stories of people who commissioned them to build
their 5th, 12th or 29th guitar out of Rosewood and Cedar and then
complain that the tone isn't like the Rosewood/Cedar guitar that they
played from another more well known builder. It's rediculous to hear.
That customer should have pulled the trigger and wrote a check for
multiple times more money and commissioned a guitar from the builder
whose tone they were expecting to cme out of every guitar built from the
same woods.

    I've had my share of flattering experiences when customers came to
me with their $15,000.00 guitar that they just had to have because the
latest issue of the guitar industry mag touted them as the best. They
would come in and proudly flip their Calton case open to reveal their
newly acquired piece of luthier art with a look on their face that indicated
that they were waiting for me to hear the angels sing.

   We would sit and pass guitars around for a little while with theirs' and
mine in the mix and their expressions would drop as they'd ask, "Why is
this one so much louder than mine?" or "Why doesn't mine sound like
this?" I always just reply with a simple, "Every builder has their own style
of building and methods that bring unique results." We all do our own
things in an effort to offer our best yet each time we complete a guitar.

    The flattering part comes when they sell they long awaited treasure
and come back to commission a guitar from me...or sometimes a few
guitars from me for the same price as that one.

     I built a very uniquely customized guitar for a customer about seven
years ago with loads of inlay designed for and even by him and very
ornate and exotic figured woods throughout. His wood selection was
carefully made after more than 60 hours of phone time discussing his
playing style, musical preferences, dynamic tendencies and so on.

    I was backordered more than three years at the time and when he
received the guitar, he loved it and even reviewed it in public as his "holy
grail" after owning and playing it for a couple of months. I was flattered
and thrilled that it had met his expectations, but things didn't stay so
sweet. He later began to complain that it didn't meet his laying needs, but
we found that he had adopted a new style of playing and switched from
heavy flatpicking to light fingerstyle during the time that the guitar was
bring built.

     Needless to say the guitar was built to accommodate heavy flatpicking
and strumming and it just couldn't respond to his new found soft fleshy
fingerstyle attack. He literally tried to destry me and my credibility as a
builder for the next few years. I finally sent a buyer to him to take the
guitars off of his hands. The new owner still owns it and has embraced it
as his main guitar....and he owns about a dozen from some of the builder
that I consider the best in the world today.

     One man's trash is another man's treasure is how this story...and
many others go. I was dosappointed that, because of a change on the
player's part, the guitar no longer met his needs, but was thrilled that the
tone had actually only improved as the guitar opened up and found its
way into the hands of a player who understood and appreciated it for
what it was....a guitar built to handle heavy attack and heavy strumming
while staying bright and separated with no muddiness and great volume.

     I have no full refund policy. Instead, if a customer has a problem with
any part of the guitar as far as material quality and workmanship is
concerned, I will correct the problem...if it is in fact a problem. Tone is a
completely subjective matter and I don't allow any guitar to leave my
benches until I am happy with its sound, volume and response.

    If a customer has an issue that cannot be resolved, the guitar is sent
back to me so that i can bring it back to new specs and then offer it for
sale as new with a fresh warranty. Once the guitar is sold, a refund in the
amount of the original price minus a resale fee of 25% is sent to the
customer. I've never had this happen yet, but it's a policy that I still
include in my commission aggreement.

    I do have a non refundable deposit as well. Once i've secured all or part
of the materials for any guitar, that deposit is no longer available for
refund.

    These are tough issues to discuss and even tougher ones to have to
address in the real world, but there has been a huge rise in the number of
guys who commission guitars with the intention of sending them back for
a refund while they set their sites on the next luthier that they'll take
advantage of.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

   

Kristopher,

I'm surprised you were able to understand your client when he spoke to you.  He sounds like a donkey to me.

This thread goes to one paradoxes of modern guitar building.  Much of the custom guitar client base is populated by people with too much money and expectations of absolute and flawless perfection. These expectations are at least unrealistic if not ultimately damaging to art and craft of luthery.

The instruments that I want to build will be accompanied with the hope that they will be played, not put into a case somewhere and never fulfill their primary reason for existense.  It doesn't make diddly squat to the tone, balance, projection or playability of the instrument if someone can feel a .001" ridge at the edge of the rosette.

Does someone who just plunked down $3500 for a hand build guitar have the right to expect a very high level of fit and finish?  Absolutely.  Should the builder (and seller) of custom guitars try to build the perfect-in-every-way instrument?  I haven't sold any yet, but that will be my goal when I do.

Well, I've ranted enough.  Hang in there Kristopher and take solice in the knowledge that you created a fine very instrument from some boards, bone and wire.  If your customer, who just got a killer deal, can't appreciate that, then just say HEEHAW. 

Carlton is right, there's NO quitting in baseball or guitar building!
You;re a good builder, and this trade requires that you have a thick skin. You'll meet a lot of folks, some of them just plain full of crap, who will nit pick your guitar- but just remember, THEY can't build one at all or they would build their own guitar and then they could stay at home all alone and nitpick it to death.
Really, don't even worry about it! My ninth guitar was not as nice as yours is!

_________________
Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Hi Kristopher,

Well, you've certainly received some excellent advice, and now see just how supportive the OLF community can be.
If you can tolerate a bit more praise, let me say that your guitar looks perfect to me.
And, I bet that when this customer's friends see his new guitar, they'll be awed with the beauty. And, further (assuming he doesn't return it), this customer will gain a new perspective. It sometimes takes others to open our eyes.

For instance, I just bought a motorcycle, a used one. I wasn't too wild about the model, it was just a good deal. But when some friends came over and saw it, they went on and on about it's beauty. Suddenly I have a new perspective, and a new appreciation. And I am so proud now to ride that gorgeous thing.
But back to your customer--I predict the same thing will occur to him. If he's the reachable sort.

Wonderful instrument!

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

The closer you get or think your getting to perfection, the harder it is to make recognizable progress. Just keep on going and trying harder. I'm betting your customer will grow to love the guitar, it looks perfect from here.
Don't quit now man your almost there.

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

My opinion comes from a different point of view as more of a player and a wannabe luthier (I do setup work and fret dresses, that's about it). When it comes to guitars, I've never heard a truer expression than "one man's trash is another man's treasure." Any of us in the know would consider that instrument you made a treasure. Keep building. And you can always take heart in what happened to an old beat up D-28 after a guy by the name of Clarence got rid of it. Trash? I think not...   

first off -gorgeous looking guitar!! its all been said already - keep on keepin' on!

i once had a customer that complained that the paint around the screw holes underneath the backplate (electric floyd rose type deal) was 'not there'...!?

I had to ask him what he meant 3 times before (and i was actually chuckling as i confirmed it) i had to say to him 'you got me there fella!'

sometimes (very rarely) people decide to buy on a whim and regret it - but dont want to call and lose face. I operate on a 'the customer is always right' ethos, but it doesnt always work out well for me. the key is definately in the relationship. i try to get to know my customers as best i can, and i do let them know if they're asking too much - although this is probably 1 in 500 or so of repairs.

Another guy expected me to drop everything and set up his 3 guitars at any time (for free because he had bought them at the shop whee my workshopws). After about 4 years of this i said No More! and we had a full on, stand up row, after which he just said 'you cant blame me for trying it on!?' ......i nearly strung him up, let alone his guitar!!

looking fwd to seeing number 10 Kristopher

_________________
www.theguitarrepairworkshop.com

Well, I don’t know a lot about building guitars. YET!

But, I do know a little bit about business. And it doesn’t matter what business your talking about.
You could be building pencils! OK, pencils may not be a good comparison.

The point is;

Believe in yourself!

Believe in your product!

Believe that you WILL make the customer happy!

In this day, of the digital age, just about anyone can get, just about anything they want,
from just about anywhere.

What makes the difference?

Customer Service!

This point has already been made several times, by several very experienced builders in this thread
And, sage advise it is!

Also, when I present myself to a potential client, who is considering contracting me to build them,
the custom home of their dreams. I not just selling them the physical properties of a house.
I’m selling myself ! I let them know straightaway, with full confidence, that I will be building their
home with the utmost attention to detail, and to the highest standard of quality. I could say a lot
more about this, but, let me make my second point.

Though I have 30+ (Hands on experience) years of building custom homes, that’s not why they
hire me to build their home. They know I won’t be swinging a hammer. They hire me because, they believe in me!
They believe in my capabilities! How you present yourself in your business has a lot to do with the success of your business.

Years ago, I believed, I would be a great custom home builder. I believe I have achieved that dream.
I can prove this, through the work I’ve accomplished, and, that my clients are happy with their homes.

Now, I believe, one day, I will be a great guitar builder. And, I will! It’s just a matter of time!

My point is, always Believe in yourself, everything else will follow. Success will find you!

BTW, you have built, one very fine looking guitar! She’s a real beauty!

Robert

_________________
Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

Serge de Jonge says .. the first ten are the hardest. I cant agree more - you never stop learning ...

I had one client who drove me nuts during the build process - we had it all worked out I thought, then everything started changing - heck just rosette was a couple weeks of emails back and forht, pictures, drawings and discussions about the ORIENTATION of the wood pieces in it - same with the headstock. There were four different, but very close in design purfling schemes - rosette, top, sides and back ... But the payoff was when he arrived to pick it up .. opened the case, looked at it for about 3 minutes without even taking it out fo the case ... picked it upa nd looked some more, flipped her over and inspected again ,, then hit a couple chords ... the smile finally on his face, the thank yous ... he sat and played for an hour or so, we adjusted the action a hair .. played some more. He left a completely satisfied client. I was nervous as hell when he first showed up, and was ready to smash the thing over his head if he said he didnt like it as I poured myself into that guitar, it was one of the toughest I had built. But you learn that you do your best, and then let it go, and move onto the next one.

Grit Laskin says - the next one will always be better - even he isnt satisfied yet, and look at those masterpieces.

CHIN UP ... SOLDIER ON, my friend ... its all part of the journey

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

    Paul Woolson raises a very important point in his post above. It always
amazes me that when peopleview paintings and sculpture, they are very
understanding and tolerant of the technique and interpretive sensitivity of
the artist.

    When I look at the work of some artists who are revered, respected and
have commanded prices in the millions for paintings I have a tough time
understanding the viewer's desire to pay for it, but the beauty and value
lie, most impotantly in the eye of the beholder. I love art and expression
and certainly understand interpretation of subject matter, but also
understand variations in technique and method and respect the artist's
use of them.

     A customer need to be familiar with your work before they secure and
agree to a commission. If they are not, they need to be ready to receive
your instrument, built to your typical specs and with all of your regular
input. Thay can not receive a guitar from you and then complain that it
doesn't have the purfling lines that they saw on an Olson or the rosette
that they saw on a Ryan or the finish that they saw on another builder's
work. If they say that the fit and finish aren;t the same as the Traugott
they'd played a while ago....they needed to buy the Traugott when they
were playing it.

    Your work is unique to you and your level of experience ad every
customer needs to understand that and accept it. I know of one builder
who has built hundreds of guitars and is held up as one of the great
traditional style builders in the world, yet his guitars still find their way to
the marketplace built very sloppily and carelessly. They exhibit
workmanship that would have prevented me from shipping a guitar even
in my first ten or so, but people buy them and wait for them and are
happy with them when they get them.

    That closes the door on his situation.If the customers are happy and
understand what they are getting, everybody is where they need to be at
the end of the transaction.

    Just keep building without trying to build copies of guitars from ther
builders. That's what's happening with alot of young builders coming up.
You appear to have great creative talent and you'll have no trouble
making people happy with the guitars you build in the future.

Have fun and enjoy the growing process,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars