Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks Rod,

Like the good little noob I am, I have had a good long look at Ervin's site and it is very interesting and informative. But you hit the nail on the head my friend, it's nothing like being there. And I found, as with so much else I read, questions arise and remain unanswered only to be pushed aside and forgotten as one reads on to find still more questions.

When are we going to see "Ervin" the movie or better still, how about an interactive course?? A series of 2hr or 3hr sessions spread over an extended time frame. Maybe 1 session a week on the weekend to give most access. An interactive online workshop where students watch live stream video, and interact with Ervin in a virtual lecture theatre. It could be run with java script like userplane to allow questions from students via their PC mike and speakers....hmmmmm

Hey Brock, you want to put that one to Mr E ?? Students pay a fee to gain password access to the room, receive emails instructing them on props, tools, wood etc to have on hand for the next session of the course. They then log in at a set time and do the course online with Evin himself at the helm

And you all thought I was just a pretty face sheesh     

Cheers

Kim

I said in a thread before on the same subject that I'm amazed at how little
people value education. I still feel the same way. People pay this much
for guitars and amps all the time. At the same time, I don't fully believe
people when they say that they've learned to think critically but don't
know how to transmit any information to anyone.

Nobody is going to be able to tell someone what their hands learned from
bending so many tops, but they'll be able to tell someone what different
degrees of stiffness are going to imply for their goal, and how they'll
brace and voice from thereon forward to meet the goal.

I really respect Ervin's thoughtfulness and scholarship as it came out
through the videos that were posted here for a while. I love that he
teaches you how to answer your why's. However, if that's what he's
teaching (how to answer your own why's), then there's a lot more that his
students should be able to talk about.

Andy, could you walk us through why you believe you were previously
overbuilding?

cost was $3500 for the last class.

How did I know I was over building??? Well before the class I didn't. I
didn't even know how to describe differences in the sounds of guitars.

During one day in the class, we had a blind listening test. We listened to
all of our own instruments that we brought. Included in the mix was one
of Ervins. We had to characterize the sound and rate them etc. When
were done we went over all the info unblinded and examined each
instrument with Ervins expertise evaluating each instrument.   His
expertise help me understand why each instrument sounded the way it
did.

It wasn't that Ervins guitar was far better than everyone elses. Actually I
liked one Dave Maccubbins the best along with Greg G's walnut guitar.
Ervins guitar was way better than mine but so were a lot of them in the
blind test. What I learned is what characteristics of the sound I liked and
what part of the construction of MY guitar lead to the difference. My
guitars sounded a lot thinner than the other guitars and clearly were
missing some bottom end and some richness. My guitars were like tanks.   
Way over built. Also my backs were very solid like a reflector and I learned
to appreciate how the back contributes to the sound. Just play your own
guitar. Then put your hand on the back and play again....any
difference????   My guitars were overbuilt. That doesn't mean everyones
is. One guitar was underbuilt.   Yours maybe too.

Again this info is not a secret   I never new how to listen and evaluate the
sound. Ervin gave me a way to it and to take those characteristics and
relate them to structure.    You have to be there to appreciate that part of
the class. You just cannot describe it.

Hope this helps

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

time for some plain words...

i am amazed that anyone would publically have the effrontery to consider that ervin or anyone else is under some sort of obligation to share what he has learned on anything other than the conditions he establishes. it is his brain, his hard earned experience and knowledge. and it is his right to determine how and what basis he will pass it on, if at all.

seems the entitlement mentality, you have it, i want it, give it to me now, is spreading. i never expected to see it here.

Andy, this brings up something else to chew on for those wanting to know how to build a great sounding guitar. The guitars that Andy mentions liking in the blind listening test were almost unanimously chosen as the 2 favorites by all in the class, interestingly enough Dave's guitar was VERY HEAVILY built, I mean a tank, my guitar(the Walnut guitar) was much lighter in construction with a more pliable top and back, still not a light guitar but way different than Dave's....they both sounded really good, so it seems that there may be many ways to get to an acceptable end.....in other words, Ervin's way is only ONE path to great guitars, find yours, refine it, and you are sure to find success.

Cheers,
Greg

_________________
Gwaltney Guitars

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael] seems the entitlement mentality, you have it, i want it, give it to me now, is spreading. i never expected to see it here. [/QUOTE]

Really? You don't always come across as that much of an optimist Michael.   

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael]time for some plain words...

i am amazed that anyone would publically have the effrontery to consider that ervin or anyone else is under some sort of obligation to share what he has learned on anything other than the conditions he establishes. it is his brain, his hard earned experience and knowledge. and it is his right to determine how and what basis he will pass it on, if at all.

seems the entitlement mentality, you have it, i want it, give it to me now, is spreading. i never expected to see it here.

[/QUOTE]

I really agree with that.  Even at my level of experience "0", I have great curiosity.  I have read, some, not all, of ES's articles on his webiste.  Very interesting.  I would love to know more.  However, if I want it bad enough, I just have to "Gut-it-up" and pay the freight.  He owes me nothing, or anyone else, for that matter.  We each learn as we go, and someone may actually learn a key that no one else has thought of.  Is it his responsibility to share that?  I don't think so.  However he may choose to.  The decision is his/hers, and no one elses.  Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=WaddyT]

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael]time for some plain words...

i am amazed that anyone would publically have the effrontery to consider that ervin or anyone else is under some sort of obligation to share what he has learned on anything other than the conditions he establishes. it is his brain, his hard earned experience and knowledge. and it is his right to determine how and what basis he will pass it on, if at all.

seems the entitlement mentality, you have it, i want it, give it to me now, is spreading. i never expected to see it here.

[/QUOTE]

I really agree with that.  Even at my level of experience "0", I have great curiosity.  I have read, some, not all, of ES's articles on his webiste.  Very interesting.  I would love to know more.  However, if I want it bad enough, I just have to "Gut-it-up" and pay the freight.  He owes me nothing, or anyone else, for that matter.  We each learn as we go, and someone may actually learn a key that no one else has thought of.  Is it his responsibility to share that?  I don't think so.  However he may choose to.  The decision is his/hers, and no one elses.  Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some.

[/QUOTE]

All that off my chest, I do believe in the sharing of information, and when, and if, I ever learn anything, including the secret of life, I hope I will be generous enough to share it with you folks (Probably couldn't share outside the forum though.).  I'm not sure I'm analytical enough to make any breakthroughs, but there's always a chance.  I know you will all be waiting with "Bait Breath",  I mean "Baited Breath".

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=WaddyT] [QUOTE=WaddyT]

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael]time for some plain words... i am amazed that anyone would publically have the effrontery to consider that ervin or anyone else is under some sort of obligation to share what he has learned.... [/QUOTE]

All that off my chest, I do believe in the sharing of information, and when, and if, I ever learn anything, including the secret of life, I hope I will be generous enough to share it with you folks (Probably couldn't share outside the forum though.).  I'm not sure I'm analytical enough to make any breakthroughs, but there's always a chance.  I know you will all be waiting with "Bait Breath",  I mean "Baited Breath".

[/QUOTE]

I actually disagree with the opinion that people HAVE or SHOULD share their own research and time spent particular style or designs...

I live down the street from Kevin Ryan and I swing by his shop all the time. He shows me stuff you guys wouldn't believe.... MicroPearl, Bevels, etc... BUT I wouldn't dare ask how to do it. If he offers to show how...I am all hears!
BUT,
First, I would feel terrible if I was to use it in one of my guitars and then take credit for something I didn't really create.
Second, I like to have my own touch.

I don't mind helping anyone problem solving and share little of what I know but some of the particular specifics that make my guitars my own will have to be "my own"....

I have my own voicing methods and approach and so far I have been pretty happy with the results, and while I have considered attenting Ervin's class which I think would be HIGHLY informative and I would definitely learn a lot.. but how would my guitars sound after that? They could sound better (and probably would) but would probably not sound my own ot at least not to me.
So I decided to create and refine my own style which will be an ever learning process.

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

[QUOTE=peterm] [snip...] They could sound better (and probably would) but would probably not sound my own ot at least not to me. [/QUOTE]

No, the sound would still be yours. He just gives you the tools and the thinking you need to have better control over the outcome.

You don't learn a process to build good guitars as much as you learn a philosophy about HOW to build good guitars. What you do with the knowledge is purely your own.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Sounds to me like getting a Masters Degree in analyzing and adapting your work to get the sound you want.  Like getting an MBA to understand the marketplace and how to adapt business to best fit.  One more cog in the gear of success.  I think that's worth the price you pay.

By the way, I hope there are no allergic reactions now that I have moved to Cocobolo.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I've never had the impression that Ervin has been clandestine with his course. I mean, he does offer it... And bless him for capping it to keep it small. Clearly that adds to what students are exposed to and respects them as learners, which seems to be a big factor in his teaching. $3500 is also NOT a lot to pay. That's how each one of my classes at school is (and I'm ironically sitting in the library right now, and probably will be for the rest of the day). People routinely pay more than that for the guitars they're commissioning from the students who take the course; it's not outrageous for luthiers to spend less than their clients to commission their education.

I'm just not sure why the students only manage to say somewhat generic things whenever people ask what they've learned, after saying they've learned to think critically. Andy's response was actually refreshing. They don't have a responsibility to share, but I know others would appreciate it if they did. Walk us through your thought process in voicing this guitar? That sort of thing.

Just thinking out loud here.    

what an intersting thread. it feels like i sort of 'get' everyone's perspective - whether it is freely sharing all knowledge and details over the internet, or saving some things to be experienced and passed on in person.
i don't want to ask for a free somogyi course. but andy, i sure would appreciate seeing your pre-somogyi bracing and your post-somogyi bracing. pictures are worth a thousand words. and i think that those pictures might give some of us a clue what you're getting at without giving away trade-secrets.
if you've got pictures and feel like you can share them, it would be appreciated. if not, that's okay too. i'd love to see some photos but am not interested in being pushy.
phil

I will not make comment pro or con to the content of this course. But regarding cost $$$'s it is worth noting that Mr. Somogy mentions that he has modest accomadations available on site including a kitchen. That's a big expense consideration if you're not local. I took a 10 day class with another builder that was also $3500 w/o accomadations or meals. Do the math.

CrowDuck

_________________
Chris Nielsen
Soquel, CA.

Yep
We all slept on the mats with sleeping bags. He had a kitchen but most of
us ate at some local restaurants

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Getting Ervin down to Australia ain't really an option (as much as I like the idea). I don't think there'd be enough takers, and we're all so spread apart (by thousands of miles), that it'd make the logistics a nightmare, and not a very profitable venture.

As far as seeing before and after pix, someone asked for just that in a previous thread a few months ago. Ervin had asked them not to, or so it said in the thread (see the archives).

Oh, and Crazyman, it ain't effrontery to ask someone to share knowledge on a guitar building forum. We all do it everyday, and have been doing it for years. It's how the craft of guitarmaking has come along in leaps and bounds since the advent of the internet. There's a reason there are so many great first guitars out there.

I have been following the Somogy threads for a while now. He has a wonderful reputation and we only hear great things about what he teaches. At some point in the near future I plan on taking such a course, about a week is all I would be able to spend so his would be PERFECT and one I was indeed seriously considering! But, for now, with this restriction, I feel quite uncomfortable signing on. I mean, once I BUY a book and adapt the priniciples I have read about, I feel very free to discuss as I see fit. I am not allowed (and shouldn't be allowed) to photocopy the text and pass it on to friends, but I could certainly adapt those techiques and pass them on, even publish them in an article or another book, with a title like "here is how I build a guitar". I could further offer to teach these techniques using the same title for the course. What I learned in the book was something to augment the many other skills, habits, likes, biasis' I have so they do become mine. All that has been said about Ervin's course is the same "he doesn't teach that you should build a guitar exactly like this but he teaches you how to think". So my apprehention about all that has been said is that you loose some of your freedom by participating in his course. What if many (most probably not all) of the points/observations he discusses you had already discovered, by whatever means, before your attendance, you would now feel uncomfortable sharing them? You attended his course and his reaffirmed some of your thoughts or maybe help you organize them better and understand how to evaluate them. Not being able to share them, especialy with others who have offered of themselves, scares me, as it makes me feel like in my 'purchase' of his ideas/techniques/processes I in turn 'sold' my ability to discuss guitar making with those others that have contributed just as much to where I am as a week with Ervin will. Al Carruth often says something like, "building something that is shaped like a guitar and functions as guitar will probably sound like a guitar, but it is that last 5% that we all journey for". So, with the pre-requiste of a guitar or few under your belt before you attend, you have come 90 to 95% of the way. Masters, such as Ervin, maybe bring you along another 1 or 2% as you walk out his door but more importantly likely get you a glimpse at 98 or 99% and you can see the path to it. That is wonderful and commendable. But still, I am struggling with the restriction, or at least deliniating the line, from what I can talk about and respect myself and those many others who have "found a way" and have shared it and then honour a request from Ervin not to discuss what I have learned and how it has made a difference to my work. No disrespect to Ervin but I am saddened by this as it may actually be one of the factors that makes me consider another master to study with to move my work forward. It is actually good that this issue was raised as it be would horrible for a person like me to attend the work shop without knowing this before hand and then feel handcuffed upon completing the course....what a mix of thoughts and emotions! The saying I have below my signiture is the ancient way of apprenticeship and Ervin is doing that I guess with his students, which may also be the ancient way of apprenticeship, but forums like this truley catelogue ideas and move the process forward.

Done with the blabbering, again, please, no disrespect to Ervin or his students.

Thanks

Shane

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Canada

Nicely rounded statement there Shane,

Just for the record, I don't think that anyone should begrudge Ervin charging a fee for making his experience and knowledge available to those who do have the good fortune to take his course, and quite frankly, I do not see that as the main issue on the table here.

What bothers me in all of this is just as Shane has suggested, the obligation of non-disclosure that is attached to that knowledge.

This just seems so strange, especially when you consider that those who have been to Evin Somogyi's course seem to unanimously agree that he does not teach a set recipe or method by which to build. Rather, they suggest that he teaches a way by which one can better assess THEIR OWN method of building so they may then adjust that method to achieve the sound from their instruments they have been trying to achieve.

If this is the case, then why the disclosure issue? If it is your own work and your own method, I just do not see the validity of the disclosure restriction.

Does this now mean that any OLF member who completes this course will never again be willing to share images or discussion on how they have braced or thinned the tops and backs of their guitars?? If that is the case, is there really any point to being a member of a guitar building forum based on freely shared information if you are in fact gaged from participation in that process in an unselfish manner?

It is indeed a very interesting set of circumstances.

Cheers all.

Kim

I really didn't want to discuss this further, but...I think Ervin is in a very interesting position, he wants to share what he has learned over the years(he really does), he knows that there is value there for all parties involved, and he also knows that divulging too much info from any such parties removes that value. Is he in it to make money, well yes that's part of it, and he has an expertise that warrants such compensation. If I had not taken the class I would be just as curious as everyone else is, I would probably REALLY want to know what happens in the bat-cave, it's really not a clandestine agreement here, it's just out of respect for Ervin's requests that some "details" are kept in-house. You know you could see pictures all day long of a guitar made at the hands of a former student and it wouldn't amount to a hill-o-beens unless you understood ALL of the other implications surrounding the choice of that bracing scheme. So I leave this topic appreciating my time with Ervin and totally understanding and respecting the agreed-upon restraint in revealing things that Ervin has learned over decades of trial and error. Ervin is a gentleman, maybe YOU would handle this knowledge in a different way, but I think one must really look deeply within to find the honest answer to that question, and either way let's respect Ervin's answer to that question, I do!

Cheers,
Greg

_________________
Gwaltney Guitars

All this secrecy stuff reminds me of a cult. You join, pay your money, then you can't talk about it to anyone else unless they're on the inside too.

I thought religion was not allowed on this forum?

Well, this is a very interesting, complex, challenging, and emotional topic, isn't it? I'll add a couple cents worth.

First, I have utmost respect for Ervin and trust his best intentions. I also have a lot of gratitude for what I've learned from him at GAL and ASIA conventions. I hold him in high esteem and honor his talent, experience, and achievement. I also find him a very charming, funny, and likeable guy.

It probably sounds like I'm about to say, "BUT...", but I'm not.

I recently completed a class with Charles Fox, and I see some parallels... There was no specific information that Charles shared with us that would be strictly off limits for me to discuss (with the one exception of a specific new design idea he has that he essentially asked us to give him a running start with - it will be public soon enough if it's successful). However, I feel that it would disrespect him and devalue his teaching for me to try to pass it all on here on the OLF. Moreover, it wouldn't be possible. You had to be there. But even various specific techniques he showed us or whatever that I could theoretically divulge... well, I honor his vast experience and the long, hard road he's traveled to get to where he is now. His teaching has great value and, rightfully, cost me substantially to partake in. I always share as much as I can of what I feel is mine to share on this forum, but I ain't just gonna turn around and give away Charles' stuff. I don't think it would be right and I certainly wouldn't blame Charles for being disgusted with me if I did. It's up to Charles to decide how and when he spreads his teachings, and, like Ervin, he shares very generously (often for "free" and sometimes for a fee, but it's very generous of him in either case). What I will continue to do is share MY stuff, and that will inevitably incorporate what I learned from Charles. As I integrate what I learned from him, and develop it within my own framework, it will slowly become mine and then I will share it. By that point, it will have morphed into something that isn't really Charles' any more.

Meanwhile, I admit, if somebody is facing a specific problem here and there's something I learned from Charles that I think will offer them a solution, I'll probably let it leak out...

I guess I'll make one more point, at the risk of sounding elitist to some. The vast majority of people on this forum (and others) are what I would call "students" of this art of lutherie. That includes myself. We are here to help each other learn, and we all recognize that we have only to gain by sharing freely among ourselves. There are very few luthiers with hundreds of guitars and several decades of experience behind them among our company here. Those folks are in another league. What a great gift it is that we have had and have a few of them here! Truly a great gift, and I think we should all thank them profusely every time they show up and help us out. These rare individuals notwithstanding, I certainly don't hold it against a guy like Ervin for choosing to offer his teachings on his own terms.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/