Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] I wonder why they would put up a photo showing a gob of excess glue?[/QUOTE]

I saw that as well and started to say something

There is a guy that lives rather close to me (in SE Georgia) that is supposed to be the absolute authority on saddles and bridge pins (according to one luthier forum that I frequent). He has bones of every known and unknown animal and ivory from prehistoric animals and  fossilized penis bones and such things and charges a fortune for them.

I'll just take the plain old cow's bone. Works for me. Martin and Gibson have used plastic bridge pins for decades... those work for me too but I would use other things if I could find a bargain.

PS: I gotta go talk to this guy with all the exotic stuff one day.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Ken, I've been meaning to talk to you about him (Bob C. I assume). All his
stuff I've seen is excellent work, excellent materials, and most of his prices
for the non-exotic materials are quite reasonable. I've talked to him a few
times, and he's a really nice guy. You should definitely get in touch with him.

I briefly brought up the idea to Lance a while back about approaching him
about a group buy. Obviously your name came up as the one to go talk to
him . Perhaps on a bulk purchase he may be willing to work out a deal
for a bunch of unslotted bone and ebony pins.

In any case, since you're his neighbor I really think you should check him out
some time.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

[QUOTE=David Collins]Ken, I've been meaning to talk to you about him (Bob C. I assume). All his
stuff I've seen is excellent work, excellent materials, and most of his prices
for the non-exotic materials are quite reasonable. I've talked to him a few
times, and he's a really nice guy. You should definitely get in touch with him.

I briefly brought up the idea to Lance a while back about approaching him
about a group buy. Obviously your name came up as the one to go talk to
him . Perhaps on a bulk purchase he may be willing to work out a deal
for a bunch of unslotted bone and ebony pins.

In any case, since you're his neighbor I really think you should check him out
some time.[/QUOTE]

 

He is only about 30 minutes from me.. maybe 45 minutes.. I've been meaning to go see him anyway, so if everybody wants to do a group buy let me know. I'll be glad to see what we can work out.

 

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

[QUOTE=yukonarizona]     
     The fit of the string into the slotted hole is important as is that the length
of the string in the slot should be firmly and evenly (not tightly) pressed into
its slot by the pin. [/QUOTE]

I don't mean to start an argument here, but I would really like to hear others weigh in on these points. Is there some consensus that these two things enumerated by Mr. or Ms. Arizona are important for sound quality? Or do many of you respectfully disagree?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

[QUOTE=David Collins]

It's a fact that slotted bridge pins destroy bridge plates, and even tops
and bridges over time. One of the worst things I see
from people who have heard of slotting the bridge but don't understand
why, is still using slotted pins with a slotted bridge - that's a double
whammy.

[/QUOTE]

David, would you be willing to describe what you consider to be the key points in a correct bridge pin installation, esp with regard to these structural/functional concerns? Fitting the pins, slotting the holes, etc... what are the fine points of your method to get it just exactly right? (If you have the time to offer us some expert instruction...) Thanks.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I have a pile of demo boards I made showing profile and bottom views of
unslotted pins and slotted pins in various stages of wear, damage, and types
of repair. Unfortunately, Lake Superior sand dunes killed my camera a few
weeks ago. I'll make a point of posting pictorial / tutorial on those as soon
as I get some photos. Perhaps I'll try to borrow a camera this week.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Todd...What Yukon states makes sense from a theoretical standpoint to me. More importantly, it just makes sense to keep all mating parts tight and properly fitted. I have no practical experience in hearing differences between well-fitting and loosly-fitting BPs...it just makes sense to have them well-fitted.

The more controversial issue on this thread to me is the ability of the human ear to distinguish dramatic differences from one BP material to another. In my mind, materials fall on a scale ranging from resonant(pinging) to damping (thudding). I try to select those materials that are more pinging to my ear. A sensitive oscilliscope might be more discriminating. So far it has produced volume, tone and sustain that pleases my highly subjective ear.

As a matter of fact...going forward, I am considering using hardwood BPs that also ping. Toward that end, I would also be interested in participating in a group buy.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

If (Mr.) Yukon says it, I'm inclined to believe it.
He isn't the Head Repair person at one of the top acoustic instrument boutiques in the U.S. for nothing.

Although...he IS somewhat of a walking StewMac ad....


Sorry folks, that's an NEL "inside joke".

I've been listening to the argument about slotted vs unslotted pins for years now, and I have to make this one statement...

SOMETHING has to be slotted in order to get the string through there. Does it really matter if it's the pin or the hole???????? Not really. The things that really matter are:

1.) how strings are yanked out when they are changed, and whether or not the person changing the strings bothers to seat the ball end of the string properly against the plate and pin, and

2.) how well everything fits. Too loose or too tight each have their issues.

The plate will get worn over the years from either type of pin. Educate folks on proper removal and installation of the strings and pins, and you'll have less work to do in repairing bridge plates. Respectfully - don't blame the pins...blame the people, or blame the fit.

Rant over.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

One other thing. As far as wear is concerned, think about the "path of least resistance" concept. If the ball end of a string is going to wear something down, it will be whatever is the softest, and weakest of the materials. If you use a slotted soft plastic pin, it will wear more, and eventually allow the ball to work damage on the bridge plate hole. If you use a harder pin, either slotted or unslotted, it won't wear so quickly and allow the damage in the same way as a soft plastic slotted pin. That is to say that the slot itself isn't the problem, but more the material of the pin when slotted.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Alan,

Wow, you'd literally go to the ends of the earth, eh? Would this approach also require a real tone generator made from a conch shell from the Eastern coast of New Zealand for the generation of Chladni patterns, or would an artificial electronic device be sufficient? Would a solid-state generator be OK? Or would it have to have tubes?

David,

I'm looking forward to seeing that. It would perhaps confirm my preferences, after seeing how the edges of the bridge plate at the pin holes get rounded from slotted pins, leading to cracked bridge plates, bridges, tops and so on. Trouble is, I've seen the insides of only a very few guitars with unslotted pins, and none old enough to make a comparison.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

While waiting for David's pictorial tutorial - looking forward to it - this page from Bryan Kimsey's website may be of interest.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

[QUOTE=burbank] Would a solid-state generator be OK? Or would it have to have tubes?
[/QUOTE]

I can contribute a Du Mont, 304-A, Cathode-ray, Oscillograph, I have had for about 10 years or so.  Still works fine.  All tube, so no, high end, digital purity.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=Dave White] While waiting for David's pictorial tutorial - looking forward to it - this page from Bryan Kimsey's website may be of interest.[/QUOTE]

Great resource Dave...Bryan's site is a treasure trove of great information, second only to Frets.com IMO. In addition to showing the merits of bridge slotting and using solid BPs he also has info related to proper setups.

I "met" Bryan years ago at the UMGF where he chimed in quite often about hot-rodding Martin guitars in order to enhance performance.

He has a very straight forward and organized approach to properly set up a guitar...his method is my main source for getting proper adjustments and a good action.

A side note...if I remember correctly, he and Mario were once joined at the hip in developing the "Proulx Magic Tone Enhancer". Once separated, they flipped a coin...Bryan became known as "Happy" and Mario became "Grumpy"!     

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

     Regarding slotted pins being suitable as long as the material is hard, I
still don't think that works. If there is no slot in the bridge/bridge plate
then the ball end will always be trying to seat at the edge of the hole
rather than firmly on the bridge plate. The slot in the bridge pin will
allow the ball end little by little to gnaw at the edge of the hole.
     Of course on the other hand I can think of a recent situation where a
slotted bridge caused a problem. A very well known folk performer ready
to go on at a stadium show called me at wit's end and said that she had
just broken 5 high E strings at the bridge on her Goodall. We
brainstormed for a minute but didn't come up with anything so she was
sadly relegated to the stage backup guitar - which she hated. Another
minute after hanging up I had an idea. I called her back and asked her to
be sure to only insert the ball end a little ways into the hole and then use
the pin to push the ball end the rest of the way so that the ball end never
passed the bridge plate. Viola! She had a great show and I got to be hero
of the day. As I see it, when the E strings were inserted they were
dropped into the hole, then the pin was installed and the string pulled
snug. The windings caught on the bridge plate and when tuning up
would come unwound.

I've used slotted ebony pins in my personal guitars for 30 years...and I don't just mean the ones I've made...and there are no signs of any bending or additional wear on the bridge plate. Maybe folks shouldn't use that soft maple for bridge plates and switch to somethin' harder, like rosewood, or osage, or carbide or somethin'.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

AS I've followed the thread, it has ebbed and flowed a bit. Very interesting comments everyone.

Now I have a question. How many of you luthiers use a sacrificial wood backup when drilling your holes?

We all know how wood blows out of a drilled hole on the back side. A sacrificial backing block into which to drill keeps this from occurring so badly. It may still do it a little even with a sacrificial backing block.

What type drill bit do you use? I currently use a standard drill bit, and admit using a 3/16 inch, yet I think the hole should be slightly smaller than that.

Thirdly, what reamer do you use. I picked one up for 15 bucks at Ace Hardware years ago. It works. However, reading this thread now, brings up the point of how well fit everything is. I use standard pins, who knows what degree they are, or what degree the ream is either. How do you tell?

I will say I did love the post someone made a while back about the Japanese Q-tips and CA douche to give the wood around the bridge pin holes added strength. This is probably not a bad periodic maintenance idea.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

...Wood backup when drilling
...3/16" brad point bit
...5* reamer from Stewmac
...5* pins

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Here is Stemac's three and five degree reamers. Just the look visually, mine would be a five degree ream from ACE hardware. But, since I use a standard Martin Pin looks like that's a match.

It states in their ad at Stewmac that Gurian and Gibson use the 3 degree taper. Mystery solved.



Wow, it's gone up to $20 at ACE. That's right, world metal prices have skyrocketed.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I tried the Ace hw one from General too, then switched to SMs. Much cleaner holes with SMs. Switch, Bruce, you'll never go back!

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

That StewMac rig is $47. I plan to test mine a bit and may just replace it if I don't like what I find.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Just a FYI, I bought a reamer from LMI, and it came with no handle. Just a tapered shaft. I either have to use a pair of vise grips with it or chuck it up in my drill in order to use it. I have opted for the drill and I now have a mark on it so that I dont ream too deep. so far it is working, but I would rather have one with a handle...

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H