Official Luthiers Forum!

So many curmudgeonly comments have occurred to me by the time I got to the bottom of this thread, I don't know where to start. So I won't. Good luck with whatever.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[QUOTE=Pat Hawley] I've been testing on mahogany and quilted bubinga. I've also been pore filling with I might do that.One thing I found by accident was that applying shellac prior to pore filling with the epoxy kept the bubinga lighter looking. Without the shellac first, the quilted pattern in the bubinga darkened up quite a bit under both the TruOil and the epoxy. So probably, whatever else I do, I'll start with shellac on the body. At the moment, I'm thinking shellac, then epoxy
[/QUOTE]

Caution Will Robinson!!!!!!!!!!

I Know I have said this at least and 100 time but I will again. Never put epoxy over shellac. You can tooth the shellac and the epoxy will appear to adhere well but some where down the road the epoxy will loose its bond. you can put shellac over epoxy and it will last forever but I strongly recommend against ever pouting epoxy over shellac. Shellac will adhere to high polished glass, but the same is not true of epoxy.

I know this from experience. If you do not tooth the shellac the epoxy will let go in no time. If you tooth the shellac you may thinks all is fine then one day without warning it starts to sluff off.

Howard, you have such a way with words...<lol>

You got a problem wit' dat?

Ah you, tooahlkin' t'ah me?

Thanks Rick: I could have sworn the stuff on the SCGCs I've got is poly. Are you sure they _never_ used it?

Yes, I'm sure. Fred Latta was their main finisher for years; he went independent and worked out of my shop 'til he burned out on finish work.   Now his successor at SCGC, Addam Stark who also moved on from there, works independently out of my shop.   Believe me, I know what they shoot, 'cause I know the guys that shot it. They experimented with polyurethane on maybe one instrument, and I don't think it ever left the building.   All 10,000 plus other SCGC guitars are nitro lacquer over various things, now over vinyl sealer.   McFadden all the way...oil based pore filler, sealer, top coats...

OK, no epoxy over shellac. Thanks for saving me Hesh et al.

I definitely will look in to some of the suggestions made here such as the Formby's, Waterlox and Behlen's on top of the System III epoxy which I've grown comforable with as a pore filler.

I must admit, I find discriminating between an "Ace Hardware" approach and a "proven for guitars approach" somewhat difficult.  McFadden's product line for fretted instruments includes polyurethane of which they say: "and have been a workhorse in the fretted musical instrument industry (guitars)".  Target Coatings also makes reference to guitars in the blurb that goes with their polyurethane. Waterlox on the other hand, advertizes mostly as a finish for floors. They do list other uses but I didn't see any mention of guitars. So if I were to go on this information alone, I would say polyurethane good, Waterlox, not applicable, i.e. it ain't obvious.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

My use of Waterlox under other finishes for guitars is totally unique as far as I know. It's just one of those things that I tried and it worked, and then I did more research and found the more chemical reasons why it improved the bonding of other materials.   It works for me...

Just kinda shows that in spite of what we know from tradition, there are still some new things under the sun out there. Be they "hardware store" finishes or the old standards.

There are new products coming out all the time. Who can say which one might just be worth trying on an instrument....unless somebody tries it. And just because something did not work for somebody doesn't mean it can't be made to work by somebody else.

I really cannot see the reason not to try something new just because we already have something that we know works. Can't seem to remember the last time I rode a horse to town

Grant

[QUOTE=Pat Hawley] OK, no epoxy over shellac. Thanks for saving me Hesh et al.I definitely will look in to some of the suggestions made here such as the Formby's, Waterlox and Behlen's on top of the System III epoxy which I've grown comforable with as a pore filler.I must admit, I find discriminating between an "Ace Hardware" approach and a "proven for guitars approach" somewhat difficult.  McFadden's product line for fretted instruments includes polyurethane of which they say: "and have been a workhorse in the fretted musical instrument industry (guitars)".  Target Coatings also makes reference to guitars in the blurb that goes with their polyurethane. Waterlox on the other hand, advertizes mostly as a finish for floors. They do list other uses but I didn't see any mention of guitars. So if I were to go on this information alone, I would say polyurethane good, Waterlox, not applicable, i.e. it ain't obvious.Pat
[/QUOTE]
Pat i'm looking into the system three epoxy. I was wondering what is the proper one to use? there are two a regular one and a clear coat which is thinner. Thanks

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Pat, it's a tricky slope. To get more specific on the polyurethane, McFadden's isn't what you'll find in a store, and you have to use the mega buck sealer, too, which defies the purpose of going to Ace for polyurethane, no?

Finishing is a weird science. You just have to play around wit 'stuff', and eventually, you develop a feel for what may or may not work, and it just can't be explained. there's a guy in our small town who's done9and still does0 the finish on every classic car/hot rod/show car for hundreds of miles. His shop is a mess. he's a mess. Ask him anything specific, and he shrugs. But the man can lay down a coat of anything like nobody else. it's a 6th sense, almost.

Don't give up; there's no teaching this stuff; just dig-in, and do it. Myself, i was painting plastic car models at age 5, spray painting at least by age 7 or 8, had a dual action airbrush before the things existed(almost <g>), and eventually screwed myself up so bad i had lead poisoning from exposure to that greatest of all paints, "Sign Painter's One Shot Enamel". I used to do helmets, race cars, demolition derby cars, tow trucks, anything..... My tool box had a desert scene mural!

My point? Just start messing with finish. No matter what system you end up with, wood being wood, it will still need tweaking at every turn....

Mario speaks the truth here...

There is one overriding good reason to go with known successful guitar finishes when you're starting off.   It's called warranty work.   Do you really want to be refinishing your guitars when they come back to you from dissatisfied customers?   

I got badly burned on Crystalac, at one time the latest and greatest thing since the invention of nitro lacquer. It cost me about 20 refins and a scathing review that just will not die of one of my basses on a site on the Internet, even though I did that bass nearly 15 years ago. If your future reputation is worth the savings of buying finishing materials at your local hardware store, good luck in this business.   And it is a business...

Pat, One of the hardest things for folks to do is listen to others. I can't understand this. I worked with a younger tech at my old shop that would get in a bind and eventually ask for help and advice. I was glad to give it but he would never use it! Eventually, I quit helping because the fella' just was too hard headed to take advantage of someone elses advice that could have saved him hours of extra work.

Finishing can not be taught, It is an art, a sixth sense like Mario said. The more you do it, the better you get. The better you get, the better you are at knowing what will work. Trial and error, trial and error.

Take advantage of the free wisdom that is passed along here. If someone that has been spraying for 15 to 25 years says something doesn't work, thank them and move on! They just saved you a ton of money and time. We're fortunate to have such a great place to pick the brains of. I'm not saying you can't get a finish that you are happy with using some of the "alternate" consumer products out there but is it worth all the time you took to build a great instrument and have the finish fail on you?

I have used Ilva 2 part polyurethane successfully over E.I. Rosewood and
camatillo rosewood with shellac as the sealer. I could be misinformed,
but my understanding is that it's not a catalyzed finish, it is a 2 part
finish, like epoxy. The hardener is not a catalyst, but part of the finish.
It's a 1:1 mix. Either way, I had no problems on either of those two
rosewoods.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

I've never used Behlen's Rockhard, nor have I read the can, but somehow I was under the impression that it's a polyurethane formulation. Anybody know?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Ah, phenolic. Interesting. Thanks, Todd.

Phenolic is noted for yellowing more than other resins. I wonder what a Rockhard finished guitar will look like after 10, 20, 50, or 100 years?

Waterlox is made with phenolic also, as Rick noted above, but the way he's using it, there's such a thin layer of it that I would guess the yellowing effect (over time) is extremely minimal.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I like the yellowing as long as it doesn't look totally fake like some of the big boys' toner... I'm not a fan of bright white wood on guitars.

Me too!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

totally fake like some of the big boys' toner...

Ya mean, like the pumpkin orange tops on Blueridge guitars?

Actually I was thinking of some of the orange tops coming out of Nazareth, PA...there's toner and there's hideous...

[QUOTE=grumpy] totally fake like some of the big boys' toner...Ya mean, like the pumpkin orange tops on Blueridge guitars?
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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Mike,

I checked the bottles and I've been using the System III Clear Coat. It's what I ordered from LMI at the same time I ordered the KTM-9 with the intent to follow Mike Doolin's posted instructions on how to finish using KTM-9. I didn't even realize there are two kinds of System III. It seems to work well but I don't have much to compare against as my experience with pore filling is limited (to System III clear coat!).

Thanks everyone for the advice given on this thread.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.