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So where do you get Caviuna and how much is it?

A wildlife Biologists specializing in Endangered Species and yet you have still left the questions we pose unanswered. So, how are we as woodcutters and sellers really expected to know the answers. The bottom line and question in focus is..does "Caviuna" fall under the Dalbergia Nigra category protected and restricted by CITES I. Very simple question but, one that no one really seems to be able to answer.

[QUOTE=arvey] So where do you get Caviuna and how much is it?[/QUOTE]

Deja Vu all over again.   

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Jeff wouldn't it make sense to send a sample to a Certfied Testing Lab and have it identified along with Certfied test results. Then you'll know it's either
Dalbergia Nigra or it isn't.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
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The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

This piece looks very close to the one Jeff posted.

I am almost positive it is Hymalain shesham wood.

Brad Goodman38595.8935069444

[QUOTE=Brazilwood] A wildlife Biologists specializing in Endangered Species and yet you have still left the questions we pose unanswered. So, how are we as woodcutters and sellers really expected to know the answers. The bottom line and question in focus is..does "Caviuna" fall under the Dalbergia Nigra category protected and restricted by CITES I. Very simple question but, one that no one really seems to be able to answer.[/QUOTE]

Great question. Were these Caviuna trees thought (by CITES or whomever) to be Dalbergia Nigra when they decided it was endangered?

If so, then the Caviuna is endangered as well.

To me, its Brazilian Rosewood. Perhaps it is a somewhat more distinguisable difference in tree form as opposed to lumber, but no one is selling them as trees internationally. I am willing to bet that the trees this Caviuna come from are in the same danger as the Dalbergia Nigra trees and for the same reasons. That its tecnically not Nigra is basically just that - a technicality.

I really don't have a utopian opinion on Brazilian Rosewood though - because you or I making a guitar out of endangered wood is not really the problem. You and I are not burning down forests and turning them into cattle farms or whatever. We're approaching the wood with some respect, and definitely not being wasteful of it. The problem should instead be addressed at its root.

If someone has a piece I want I'll buy it and make a guitar out of it. And CITES won't even be a consideration for me, regardless of where I sell it.
jfrench38595.9165046296

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Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Arvey, I have "Caviuna" and the cost would be in the same range as BRW. But, I want to identify it and determine if it can be legally exported first.
BobC, I think that will really be the only way to resolve the question. Do you have contact info on a testing lab. I don't have concerns with sending a small piece internationally for testing.
Brock... It seems to be a vicious cylcle don't it ?
Brad..that is very similar in appearance..are you sure it's not Pau Ferro, Jacaranda, Himilayan Rosewood or, or ,or ... The peice I posted is just one of the many different appearances of this wood. But, man I'm afraid now to post any more for confusing the issue even more.
JFrench..you go boy. I tend to agree with you. Man there's so much I'd like to say but, seems I would fuel a fire on this issue. But, just to give an example...I was looking at ban saws and some other stuff at a huge warehouse here the other day and you wouldn't believe how many beautiful thick pieces of BRW I saw that had been used as guides for table routers, table tops on handmade table saws and just literal abuse of something so rare. It's so common place here to see stumps of BRW in the entrance to the lumber shops and stuff. It really makes me I better stop..
"Boa Noite" (Good night)to you all...

Jeff I don't know of any specific place but a Google search on "wood testing laboratory" brings up quite a few places and some of them appear to be Universities.
The US Forest Service seems like a good place to inquire.
http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.usBobc38596.0988888889

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
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The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

O.K...now I'm getting somewhere. Obviously (contrary to popular belief) and what I previously stated, Caviuna or "Dalbergia Miscolobium" is unrelated to "Dalbergia Nigra" enough to keep it from being linked to the CITES I ban on BRW. For those who are interested here's a link that was last updated June 14, 2001 that clearly states the Conservation Status of this tree is considered "Not Threatened". Since "Dalbergia Nigra" was included in the CITES I in 1992, I think this must put some validity to the fact that they are very different. http://www.ildis.org/LegumeWeb/6.00/taxa/11298.shtml
So, anybody want to buy some sets ?

Jeff a search on the US Forest Service website on Dalbergia Nigra lists one of the names as Caviuna. The problem as I see it is if you want to sell this wood and not have it condiscated and loose all of it which would be a shame then the burden of proof is on you. That's why I think having it tested and certified that it is not Dalbergia Nigra is the only way to go. I would hate to see you loose this wood and face posible fines.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
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The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

I think Bob is right.

I know at the moment in Europe they would be bound to stop it, and we have to say that the customs officials etc. are working with the same difficulties over identification and information availability. Truth is in Europe at the moment is, if it looks like BRW chances are they will assume it is BRW.

This is a very interesting topic. First of all, having a fish and wildlife background as well, species are 'lumped' and 'split' at more than an infrequent basis (I hope I have all the double negatives in the right place!) And this occurs even more so when species are first discovered or when the initial research was poor, it also occurs for 'political' reasons in some cases. But that is almost irrelevant! But one thought that occurs to me as I read through this is this:

If there is a genuine concern for the disappearance from this planet of BRW then wouldn't seeking to have permission granted to export for a differnt, but so similiar a species (if Caviuna is) be counter-productive to the protection of BRW? If Caviuna is SO similiar that you, Jeff, advise that most, if not all, of us who drool over these woods could not tell them apart then how is the person at the border to determine the difference? They will have no skill in thsi regard! Thinking as I write, if you pursue this, which I think you might, then maybe you could have built in some system of authorizing the species and 'serial numbering' each set so that tracking can be put into place.

I hope that you get what I am saying, having a very similiar species to BRW allowed on the international market could (and probably already is) contribute to its final extinction. Having said that, if this similiar wood is going to be available I like the idea that you will be a supplier for it. I sense that your are a man of high integrity and I would feel better knowing I purchased a wood that was legal and not endangered and not be given the endangered one because it was on hand.....

Anyway, I am getting tired too. I really appreaciate the concerns raised in this discussion. It is honourable. We must all remember this is not our planet, it belongs to those that follow us, man, animal, plant and rock.

Shane

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Canada

[QUOTE=Bobc] Jeff a search on the US Forest Service website on Dalbergia Nigra lists one of the names as Caviuna. The problem as I see it is if you want to sell this wood and not have it condiscated and loose all of it which would be a shame then the burden of proof is on you. That's why I think having it tested and certified that it is not Dalbergia Nigra is the only way to go. I would hate to see you loose this wood and face posible fines. [/QUOTE]

Maybe I am naivee, but it seems like the real issue is in all of these local and regional names, if Dalbergia Miscolobium isn't threatened, and this wood is determined to be DM, why can't you just ship it and declare it by its latin name.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Actually Broc when I ship sets I just decalare it as Guitar Laminant Samples and haven't had any issues or problems at all. And I've shipped to the US - Canada - Australia without incident.

Jeff,

Try contacting someone at the Universidade de Sao Paulo. They have people who can identify this wood for you. Also Instituto Butanta could at least point you in the right direction.   

Actually the problem is in using local names. A good example is granadillo. LMI lists the Botanical name as
Platymiscium spp which is correct. However if you look at the US Forestry site you will find Granadillo also listed under cocobolo which is a Dalbergia. Like wise
Caviuna is listed as Machaerium spp. Not a Dalbergia
Caviuna
Pau Ferro
Family: Leguminosae

Other Common Names: Capote, Siete cueros (Colombia), Cascaron (Venezuela), Chiche (Ecuador), Tuseque, Morado (Bolivia), Jacaranda, Jacaranda pardo (Brazil

or

Dalbergia nigra    
Family: Leguminosae   

Brazilian Rosewood
Jacaranda

Other Common Names: Palissandre du Bresil (French), Jacaranda de Brasil (Spanish), Cabiuna, Caviuna, Jacaranda (Brazil).

That's why the confusion with local names.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
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The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

The link I referenced to also give other names for "Caviuna"

"Dalbergia violacea" (J.Vogel)Malme [Synonym] [1414]
"Miscolobium nigrum" Martius [Synonym] [3145]
"Miscolobium violaceum" J.Vogel [Synonym] [1414][3145]

Common Names:
Canela-de-burro [1414]
Cavi?na-do-cerrado [3145]
Jacarand?-cavi?na-do-cerrado [1414]
Jacarand?-do-campo [3145]
Jacarand?-do-cerrado

The sources sited for giving these descriptions and the dates they were given:
Source(s):
1988(Americas)Zarucchi JL
1993 Zarucchi JL
1993-12 Cavalcante de Lima H
2000-02 Heald J

As of 2001
Conservation Status: Not Threatened

However, looks like my next move is to call IBAMA again directly. Even though the last time I spoke with them, even they didn't have answers to some of the questions I had. Their comment on a question regarding "Dalbergia Nigra" ( That's a good question, I don't have the answer ).Brazilwood38596.4626967593

I hope this is ok for this thread. I found this great BRW article. It seems the smell of BRW is the problem.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/international/americas/30r osewood.html

[QUOTE=jfrench]
Great question. Were these Caviuna trees thought (by CITES or whomever) to be Dalbergia Nigra when they decided it was endangered?

If so, then the Caviuna is endangered as well.

To me, its Brazilian Rosewood. Perhaps it is a somewhat more distinguisable difference in tree form as opposed to lumber, but no one is selling them as trees internationally. I am willing to bet that the trees this Caviuna come from are in the same danger as the Dalbergia Nigra trees and for the same reasons. That its tecnically not Nigra is basically just that - a technicality.

I really don't have a utopian opinion on Brazilian Rosewood though - because you or I making a guitar out of endangered wood is not really the problem. You and I are not burning down forests and turning them into cattle farms or whatever. We're approaching the wood with some respect, and definitely not being wasteful of it. The problem should instead be addressed at its root.

If someone has a piece I want I'll buy it and make a guitar out of it. And CITES won't even be a consideration for me, regardless of where I sell it.
[/QUOTE]

Can I ask you to clarify your position on this? You seem to state that you believe Caviuna should probably be lumped with BRW as endangered (and so protected?), then seem to do a turnabout and say that you would buy it, build with it, "And CITES won't even be a consideration for me..."

Also, as you stated, the reality of the loss of habitat (specifically rainforest habitat) is primarily due to peasants employing slash and burn to subsist on the land for a few years. However, the specific species Dalbergia nigra is still disappearing due to its value as lumber, not because it happens to be on a chunk of land being burned. To pretend that luthiers are not the main destination for Dalbergia nigra is ridiculous. And, the assertion that "...you or I making a guitar out of endangered wood is not really the problem" is just flat wrong - legally, ethically, and ecologically.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Wow Keith, that was an interesting article. It sickens me to think of all that beautiful wood being ground up to make perfume. I had no idea.

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

There's a saying "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck".

Russell's right, the European authorities would treat it as D. nigra if it arrived on our shores. Each board would need testing and certifying.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=DennisLeahy]
Can I ask you to clarify your position on this? You seem to state that you believe Caviuna should probably be lumped with BRW as endangered (and so protected?), then seem to do a turnabout and say that you would buy it, build with it, "And CITES won't even be a consideration for me..."

Also, as you stated, the reality of the loss of habitat (specifically rainforest habitat) is primarily due to peasants employing slash and burn to subsist on the land for a few years. However, the specific species Dalbergia nigra is still disappearing due to its value as lumber, not because it happens to be on a chunk of land being burned. To pretend that luthiers are not the main destination for Dalbergia nigra is ridiculous. And, the assertion that "...you or I making a guitar out of endangered wood is not really the problem" is just flat wrong - legally, ethically, and ecologically.

Dennis[/QUOTE]

I thought that might be confusing. Technically I think that if Caviuna is equally as endangered and we think its Nigra anyway, it should be just lumped in with Nigra - since the only real difference is so menial that it seemingly must be determined by scientists.

Or if its not endangered, we should start processing it for guitars and such immediately (and re-planting, etc) to divert people away from the endangered Nigra.

Thats just my logic, not my opinion.

My opinion is this:

Governing the "international trade" on it is not an effective solution. The only way to stop people from cutting down the trees are to STOP THEM FROM CUTTING THEM DOWN. And there are loopholes galore. The market for it is obviously not going away - its been more than 10 years already, and CITES hasn't helped. Look how the East Indians handle things if you want a solution. They may exploit their resources, but they're not killing them off.

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I'd bet that guitars are not the only major end use of BR. Many countries, those who actively buy and sell large quanities of ivory, rhinocerous horn, tortoise shell, tiger and bear parts, and in one case whales, look upon CITES only as a minor inconvenience. They are likely using large quantities of BR for furniture as well as other decorative purposes.

The East Indians do indeed husband their resources. When Indian Stag was being over-harvested for use in knife handles (mainly by killing the deer rather than collecting the drops as the law required), India simply put a stop to all exports of stag. That ended it. No exceptions.

I was once told by a very experienced woodcrafter that you could age BR as being older or newer than 8-years by its smell. Apparently there is a profound change at that point after harvest. At one time that was being used to separate illegal from legal.   

It certainly would be nice if that Caviuna were legal.   

Kieth..thanks for that link. It further supports my belief and obviously the belief of the "Brazilian Authorities". As I said they tend to look the other way here when DN is consumed in small quantities by the local luthiers and artisans, and I think justifiably so. It is the larger companies who flagrantly abuse the resources we have. Furniture companies who in the past probably wasted enough DN to supply all of us guitar builders for the next 50 years (maybe 100). To take a square billet and turn it into a bedpost is a huge waste of wood. And that's just one simple example. The article was very interesting and touched on an industry that I hadn't even considered. Maybe I should start bagging my sawdust and sell it. There have been many uses and abuses of DN over the past 100+ years. So for someone to state that the guitar industry is the real culprit, really is out of the loop as far as I'm concerned. Another example of a double standard you might say is the fact that Giunini Guitars just outside of Sao Paulo still manufactures a good quantity of BRW guitars and ships them internationally. And I know for a fact that much of their supply doesn't come from PRE BAN stock. If guitar makers were the real culprit and using such a mass quantity..I really don't think the brazilian government would turn the other way. I don't want to make it sound as though there is no control here. The government is really working hard to not let history repeat itself. In the last year they have actually revoke 70% of the permits issued to foreign logging companies working in the Amazon areas and other parts of Brazil. I'd say this is a true attempt to do their duty to answer the cry of "Conservative Activists" like "Greenpeace" who is very present here. But, most americans don't look to their own back yard at what is going on. I don't want to start a political debate but, I want to touch on one subject that sticks in my craw and then I'll hush. The northwestern states of the US have been similarly ravished by the huge logging companies for a long time. Clear cutting 1000's of acres a year. Clinton "whom I really respected a lot" for his environmental policy had put new laws into action to protect certain areas and to slow the process of abuse by the larger companies. Shortly after Bush took office he reversed and made null all that Clinton had tried to do citing that jobs were more important than the environment. But, I didn't hear an outcry over that. So, I think the US and other countries need to clean up their own back yard before trying to control what another country decides to do regarding their logging policy. I have traveled to Europe many times and one impression that really sticks in my mind was the lack of trees. Many areas have literally been devastated. America is only a little over 200 years old. Brazil just celebrated it's 450th year as a country. And the abundance of trees is still amazing. I cringe to think what the US will look like when it celebrates it's 450th year. I think it will look much like Europe with the lack of "Environmental Protection" under the current policies.
And jfrench..I agree with you that Governing the "international trade" on it is not the only solution. The demand and not replenishing is the problem. You have to curb the demand and selectively harvest, and replenish. If other countries are so concerned about these issues, let them put their money where their mouth is and invest to repopulate. There is a lot of land here for sale and there are plenty of opportunities for investors, activists and corportations to repopulate these species. It's one thing to stand on the sideline and call plays..it's quite another to get involved in the game.