Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=Chas Freeborn] If you've got about $5k to spend this is a good turnkey unit:
http://www.shopbottools.com/
-C[/QUOTE]

Guess again! They might tell you that it's only that much, but by the time you start adding all the stuff you really need to go with it, you're looking more like $16K+. Ask John Osthoff about that. We went through that little exercise at the ASIA Symposium.

Speaking of John-O, where's he been?

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

For a full time builder depending on it for a living, I would not recommend getting into CNC. This may sound harsh but the learning curve starting from ground zero scares me. Taking night classes and/or studying CNC on your own would be an option if you're not already working day and night.
Another option might be finding a local person who is skilled in CNC and CAD/CAM, buying an entry level CNC router, and then having that person come by in his/her spare time to get the system up and running for you. Meanwhile, you could be observing occasionally and get a feel for whether this stuff is for you. If so, then you might be off and running. If not sell the machine and go back to doing it the way you know how, or possibly farm out some of your "CNC capable" parts. Or hire the "local person" full time.
Bottom line is that you don't get something for nothing. CNC is an investment in time and capital.
Again, wish I could be more helpful. Happy to answer any questions that I can.
Nelson

Bill Moll said nearly the same thing. That the investment required is huge. Money is only a piece of it.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I attended a class at Healdsburg with CNC being the topic of discussion. The breakpoint, as the panel suggested, is 24 guitars. If you build more than 24 per year then you can just [begin to] justify the cost of CNC. The panel of 3 presenters also compared smaller CNC's to Bridgeports and Fanucs and they all echo'd the same thing that bigger is much better for what we are doing. Most [meatl] mills don't turn high enough RPM's for wood machining and even if you buy an older used Bridgeport you will often have to spend more money to get it to run fast enough to cut cleanly.

Heavier cast machines will be more accurate and will not have any vibration problems the smaller light weight machines have. They also said that the software is pretty time consuming to learn it as well. Kevin Ryan spent nearly a year learning to program his Fanuc before he even made the first part.

They also suggested a machine with an automatic tool changing head as most parts will require many different tool changes.

Kevin passed around some bridge, saddle, nut & headplate covers for show and tell. All of the parts were as they came off his Fanuc and all of them had highly polished finishes and none of them were sanded or buffed. Quite impressive.

_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Nelson,

That's a very astute observation. Most people think that getting one is the end of all their worries, but with the amount of time to learn what you're doing, do the setup, programming, and other stuff, it's a time-soak. Not to mention the major initial cost of everything. What's wrong with contracting someone else with the equipment to cut your bridges and necks etc for you? I think I would go that route first before slapping down a big wad o' Green.
It's not something to jump into with a major investment without doing your homework first.

The advantage of building your own unit like John Watkins did, is that you learn a lot in the process.
You can be learning the software while you're learning a lot about the actual machine and how it works. This solves a lot of mysteries, but if you're not technically-minded, it isn't for you on any level.

I think if I were committed to getting into cnc (but I'm retired from building for now...) I would buy the machine and pay someone to come in and do all my initial programming and setup, and teach me how to use it myself. There's only so many hours in a day.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Kevin passed around some bridge, saddle, nut & headplate covers for show and tell. All of the parts were as they came off his Fanuc and all of them had highly polished finishes and none of them were sanded or buffed. Quite impressive.

Tim--I'm a little puzzled as to how Kevin applied a highly polished finish to parts on the CNC.
Can you elaborate on this? I don't think it's possible but if it is I would definitely like to know how. It would save a lot of finishing work.
Thanks
Nelson

I do agree with Nelson and Don, I think there will be a steep learning curve. I feel it's just like everything else in live, anything worth having takes hard work and dedication isn't that why we're all here now?

I'm just a smalltime builder that feels that a simple sturdy home built machine will suffice. I will try to build a unit just large enough to rough carve cello plates. I'm not sure if I need super accuracy, I would'nt think so but I will try to make it as rigid as possible.

I've looked into the electronics and found that I can get a Hobby Cnc kit for about $300 3 200oz Steppers and all, or Xylotec kit with 260oz motor for a tad more. Mach 2/3 software is not that expensive and other shareware software is available for thos that don't have the cash. Check out the cnczone website and get inspired. I feel this is something that is very doable. Afterall aren't we all intelligent and creative.

This it pretty much the design I'll go with, it's a torsion box design very rigid what do you think?

Ed--I'm glad we didn't discourage you as I think you have what it will take to succeed.
I would highly recommend the 260 in. oz. motors as an underpowered stepper will lose steps. There is no feedback with regular steppers so you won't know if this happens until something is messed up. This is what I ran into with the little Maxnc10 with it's original 70 oz. in steppers before converting to servo drives. I do think that the stepper drivers today are much better though.
Tim--Hope I didn't sound derogatory in asking about the polished finish. I've thought about some kind of contour sanding attachment for my CNC that would allow sanding arched plates and would sure welcome ideas.
Thanks
Nelson

Here's a headstock machined on a little Maxnc.
Maxnc
I bought this machine as a hobby toy back in the last century. Turned out to be a workhorse! I did modify the table travel to lengthen it slightly and retrofitted servo drives as mentioned above.
I've done inlays as well as fretboards, archtop finger-rests (pickguard), bridges, saddles, tailpieces etc. It's no speed demon by any stretch, but load the material, start the cycle and go do something else. Oh, don't forget the learning curve mentioned above!
I had this machine hooked to our family PC in the dining room early on. Goes without saying that I have a very understanding wife!
Nelson

Hey don't worry Nelson, I took no offense. I consider all you guys valued friends and I think by building one and letting you guys in on the process is my way of contributing to this wonderful forum. Besides I already got passed the biggest hurdle my Wife. I have an understanding wife too.

Beautiful work, Nelson.

_________________
John Watkins
CNC Guitar Parts

[QUOTE=EBarajas] Besides I already got passed the biggest hurdle my Wife. I have an understanding wife too.[/QUOTE]

Oh lucky you

[QUOTE=npalen] Kevin passed around some bridge, saddle, nut & headplate covers for show and tell. All of the parts were as they came off his Fanuc and all of them had highly polished finishes and none of them were sanded or buffed. Quite impressive.

Tim--I'm a little puzzled as to how Kevin applied a highly polished finish to parts on the CNC.
Can you elaborate on this? I don't think it's possible but if it is I would definitely like to know how. It would save a lot of finishing work.
Thanks
Nelson
[/QUOTE]

Nelson: He did not elaborate in the presentation but just passed some parts around that he said came staright off his Fanuc. I didn't see any machine marks on any of the parts. They were all smooth as glass including a beautiful compensated saddle. Drop Kevin an email as he said he would help those interested in getting started but be prepared for his favoritism towards big heavy machines ;)

_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I was also in Kevins' presentation at Healdsburg and in my notes I jotted down they were sanded with 600 and then steel wooled. They looked really good.
Nelson, I had given a lot of thought to polishing molds on a cnc mill in the past. Never actually got around to trying it, but maybe this will spark an idea.
My thought was to spring load a shaft (various shapes and grits) and attach sandpaper to the end of the shaft. I think I'd put a large radius on the end of the shaft and a fairly dense foam rubber interface between the shaft and the abrasive. Run a program similar to the finish pass using the the polishing shaft as the tool and staying thick a little thus allowing the spring to apply the pressure. I think it could work but would require a little development.
BTW, good looking work!


Jim_W38652.0327199074

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Hey Jim! Long time, no "see".
Didn't realize you were around "these parts".
Guess I don't pay enough attention to post authors as I see you've done a bunch.
Nelson

Thanks Nelson,
Nice to see you here too.
This thread almost has me convinced to make a machine. I think I'll give machinetoolcamp a call and try to find some more information about their plans. It might be fun if several of us are going through this at about the same time. A support group kinda thing.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

That's a great idea, actually. I'd love to build one, but I don't have the cash at the moment. For that matter, I don't exactly have room for it either.

Hmm...we don't really use the dining room much....

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I think I'll put off the idea of the Duplicarver untill I see how this pans out.

Ed
What are those rods made of? If they are steel, are they cold rolled steel or machined steel. And what are those linear bearings made of?

Thanks

John

The original design used black gas pipe and skate bearings mounted on angle iron but now many use rigid EMT electrical conduit because it has a smother finish. I'm going to use a square tube design that promises to be more rigid.



Many people like this design. What do you guys think? I bought the roller blade bearings off ebay for about 50 cents a piece (where's the cent symbol at? I'm no typist)I'm going to use 2" square powder coated smoooooth fence posts as my X axis rails and possibly for my Y. The bed and bridge will be a torsion box design to keep it rigid. By the way, I'm open to any suggestions along the way.

Guys I need your opinion, do you think I should make this out of 3/4 Birch plywood or 3/4 MDF? I trust your opinion when it comes to matters of wood then the guy's on the cnc forum.

Ed--I'm not sure which would be the best. I was picking thru my scraps the other evening to make a quick & dirty bandsaw fixture and picked up a piece of each. Noticed each had a slight bow.
Might suggest Garolite as an alternative thinking that it would be more stable. It's a phenolic material if you're not familiar with it.   Do a search in MCMaster.
It's easy to machine.
I think your box beam construction would help minimize effects of slight instability in any material.
Nelson

While very uniform and smooth (also cheaper), MDF would not be my first
choice. It's heavy, it doesn't hold fasteners well, and doesn't stand up to
moisture. A good quality (13 ply) Baltic birch will out-perform MDF any
day. It's more money, but you only want to build this machine once
(IMHO).
Craig

Ed,
I think the concept of what your showing is valid for the square rails, however it's ultimate success will depend on how straight your square tube is. You want you axis rails as straight as possible. Fence post is probably not very straight.Jim_W38653.4822453704

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Hi folks, I have been following this post in awe of Nelson’s cool(Lights out Lutherie) work and sorting out the pros and cons of buying or building my own CNC Router.   I have a younger brother who is CNC Mill and Lathe wiz for a mining company in Northern Ontario.   He seconds Nelson’s advice about the time commitment and learning curve which has kind of got me thinking this may be a post retirement project or a machine I may get and have him make parts for me.

There was a GAL article some time ago about Dana Bourgeous who farms out his necks to a CNC shop.   It’s worth a look as it shows all the jigs needed and cost of farming out just his necks.

I think its great that some of you are contemplating DIY machines and look forward to seeing how they turn out.   Below are some URL’s you might want to check out on the topic.

http://www.k2cnc.com/   These folks are out of Southern California and posted a FAQ for Guitar Making on their website. It sounds like they will be starting their own online Forum for Luthier CNC enthusiasts soon.   The machine they recommend for lutherie is their KG-3925 that starts at USD$3,250 (then start adding customs parts and software).

http://www.durhamrobotics.com/   For us Canucks, this fellow is out of the Durham region (east of Toronto near Oshawa).   His factory is temporarily closed as he his moving to a new location.   Not a bad site to look at for ideas. They sell kits as well as turnkey units and provide links to all the peripheral software you’ll need.

http://www.3drouters.com/ I stumbled on these folks via EBay.   They are located in Mt Vernon, Illinois.   Another good site to give you an idea of your turnkey cost.

http://www.techno-isel.com/CNC_Routers/index.htm This the manufacturer of the CNC Router Nelson shows above carving an Archtop plate above. They have a catalogue that they will send you free showing the various applications, machines and software you might need or want.   

Lance/Brock if some of the contributors to this thread start building machines would you folks considering running a separate CNC Thread as you have for the Charity Guitar, Michigan Luthiers, etc.?   

Anthony Z38653.4819444444