Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=jwsamuel] [QUOTE=Me]
See what I mean? It adds up real quick. Then once you have your "Costs" added up, anything you sell it for above all that can be considered profit.

[/QUOTE]

And, don't forget that out of any profit you do make at that price point, you'll have to pay a percentage of that in income and self-employment taxes.

Jim [/QUOTE]

And then there's the wife who is always wanting a new purebred kitty cat, just waiting for the cash to roll in for her to spend it. Umm...uh...nevermind that.


But you got that right.... and then there's sales tax if you sell within your state. All factors to consider.

As to factory guitars...well, I'm a big Martin fan, and there are enough Martin freaks out there to keep them in business. Long live Martin Guitars, the standard everyone looks to...from one direction or another.

Don Williams38938.6846759259

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

So on the topic of handmade versus factory built, the key point in a handmade is that the builder normally can take the time to work out all the details that a factory cannot afford to do. I'm not saying that factory guitars are bad, there are some great ones out there, and a good factory can put out some very very high level work.

BUT!!!!

It's much easier for a hand builder to accomodate the needs of a player, nothing is off limits to a hand builder and they tend to spend a good deal of time tinkering with the sound to get it perfect. That is the advantage of hand built, also as Brock says you are in a way selling romance. Also in my opinion you see a good deal of the innovations coming from hand builders who can try new and radical things without concern for what the cost is to change the production line.

All that being said as I stated in my original message there are some BAD hand built guitars out there, such is the nature of what we do. And to Brocks point I've seen people buy handbuilts that I thought where just well terrible guitars. But the people who bought them wanted a 'Hand Built' guitar and overlooked all the things that made me go

Cost is also a major issue, to re-coup the cost of my shop I'm not only building guitars I'm going to start doing custom cabinet work and possibly some custom furniture. It's not my real passion but it will pay the bills, to try and cut down the cost of my building I bought the CNC machine. The idea is that beyond the initial startup cost of doing parts (working out kinks, doing prototypes etc etc), I can duplicate quickly things like necks in a matter of say 1 hour what used to take me a day or more to get right. There's still a huge up front cost but the *hope* is that over time it will pay for it'self, so far I've sunk my life savings into doing this.

Is it worth it?? From a financial standpoint, No it's not. But life is more than making money, my passion is building guitars. I find it allows me to massage both the left and right sides of my brain, on one hand I get to do engineering and construction and on the other play with essoteric things like tone and beauty. So from a personal standpoint I find it almost better than sex , I had tears in my eye the first time a very good classical player picked up my very first classical and played for 20 minutes, he gave it back with a large smile, I was sold and hooked at that point.

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

$15 a hour labor fee is VERY poor for such a professional job, especially in the UK... I always had a hunch that Luthiers were underpaid...a friend of mine makes $20 an hour cutting hedges and grass!!!!!

I now know why George Lowden charges so much for HIS guitars!!!Sam Price38938.7117939815

I got into this because I love it, adn the opportunity arose from being turfed out of telecom due to the stock crash in 2001.

Earlier someone says - lets say you make 15 bucks an hour, and then after all the costs you make more than the 3K, thats your profit. well, the minimum wage here in Canada is about 6 bucks or so an hour - If I can make 3 times that building, that IS my profit as far as I am concerned - rather do this than work at McD's or the Borg right !!!! My own hours, my own boss, work at home, be with my kids after school, get to wear the same dirty clothes 4 days in a row, eat lunch and build at the same time because you WANT to - there is way more to the business from where i stand than just the money from a guitar sale - all the other stuff may be intangible, but if you worked in the outside world, see how much you have to make to make up for what you DONT have.

All that said, I couldnt do it without my loving wife Marion's HUGE support. She wishes she had my job.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I am about to sell one of my archtops.
When adding up costs-let's not forget about that little 20-25% commision that the guy who owns the store gets.
This guitar will retail at $5600.
I get $4200.
Because I really don't have a name that's what the market will bear.
I am not sure what commision the "big guys" pay,but I see their guitars hanging in shops all over.
The dealer believes that it is a really good guitar-or he wouldn't sell it.
Bassically I am getting $15. an hour-
When I make cabinets I charge $100. per hour
The only reason I am selling this guitar-(the only guitar I have that is finished)is because I need the money to finish a house I am building.
I have built guitars for 30 years-it's in my blood-I can't stop.
I am not sure if that makes it a hobby,vocation or obsession.Brad Goodman38938.7015046296

Some people are delusional.

There are far too many independent luthiers today trying to cash in on the current custom-built rage. Every Tom, Dick, and Harriett who's built a couple of instruments has a booth at Healdsburg (probably displaying those same two instruments); And right next to the acclaimed builders as if they are somehow equals... waxing philosophy on tonewoods and bracing as if they'd figured it all out (blah blah blah).

Show me some innovation, or have built at least 200 instruments and have 20 years of real experience. I say push the envelope. Don't build me a copy of some pre-war Martin 000 as if it was the holy grail of design. I'd buy the Martin in that case. Do something the factories don't. I've played so many instruments from X builder, whose guitars sounded like Y's, whose guitars looked like Z's. It's like they all read the same books from C and N. Wait a minute...

Most will fall by the wayside as the ROI for the aspiring builder is not worth it. There is not enough business to go around - as some have alluded to the loss of the baby boomers and another paradigm shift in personal priorities. Some will find out the hard, painful way.    

Me? I build, for myself, as a VACATION (literally) from my daily grind in front of the computer. Addictive? Yes. A career? No.

BTW, I could put a half dozen "brand" instruments in your hands that, I feel, rival the best of the independents. Mind you, it took a while to find them.

[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher] I was criticized through a phone call once from a very visible and respected luthier who questioned the wisdom of my teaching "competition" for us after one of ky students brought his newly completed guitar into his shop to see.[/QUOTE]
That guy should move to Europe; He'd fit right in with the whole secretive philosophy. He sounded threatened by the calibre of the student's instrument.

Good on you, Kevin!

[QUOTE=WarrenG]
That guy should move to Europe; He'd fit right in with the whole secretive philosophy.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you'd like to expand on that remark? Or withdraw it.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Great dicussion!

Even though we see a big push from suppliers and increases in sales of Kits, it still represents a tiny market segment.

Likewise, more information through the web about Lutherie has sparked interest, most will come and go and few will stay the course. But if increasing numbers do continue, still again, folks who build guitars is so tiny of a group worldwide, especially compared to other artisan groups and products.

I think that demand for handmade guitars and instruments from Hobbyist, part time and full time Luthiers will continue to increase. I agree with an earlier post, it will eat further into the quality factory business. The web now gives a more equal playing field with a means of building brand and name equity.

More people are buying starter guitars and learning to play than ever before. We all probably started out like that ourselves with a cheap guitar. We all want to progress, better quality, better sound. A healthy low end and mid range guitar market creates the new customers of the future and it seems to be doing great.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

If you are paying 25% commission on a $5000 guitar, you are dealing with the wrong shop. Shops around here are 20 max, all of the better ones are 15% for consignments of that value. If they want more than 20 points, I would go elsewhere.

As for the euro comment .. is it still the case that in some countries, you CANT just start building and call yourself a luthier - you HAVE to apprentice and get papers saying as such. What a crock. Its like a union over there, i mean its not like being an electrician or a plumber, where there can be serious damage or death due to incompetance.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

When I first was building guitars back in the early 80's working as an apprentice to another builder - I KNEW I had found what I wanted to do the rest of my life for my work. I just didn't have the resources at the time to really make it happen. After attending some GAL conventions I began to realize how hard it was for even very good builders to make a living at lutherie...I let myself get discouraged and took up work that made more money - supported my family - and planned to "someday" get back to building guitars. Although this was probably wise...I have often regretted chickening out and not finding a way to work at what I loved.
So, 4 years ago, after losing a job that I'd had in one form or another for 20 some years... I made the decision to build guitars again... got set up (with a business plan too)... got up to speed on some of the newer methods, and took the plunge - basically to build full time. I knew it wouldn't be easy... or very lucrative at first. I lost money the first couple of years -- broke even the next and have been slowly gaining on it. I've revised the business plan a little more realistically and I can see some light at the end of the tunnel.
The joy of building, getting these guitars into players hands and seeing their faces light up, getting to do some really cool inlay once in a while, all outweigh the downside of money being tight. No, I'm not able to charge enough yet for my instruments to really make a decent living... but I'm getting paid in a lot of intangibles that money can't buy.

I think if you KNOW this is what you are meant to do then you've got to find a way if you can to do it. Don't let "too many builders" or worries about the guitar market alone discourage you. Get really good at it. Know your costs. Make a plan... get out there and do what you love.

I know a lot of very good musicians who whould never consider a custom made guitar. First, they immediately think that the cost would be way too high. I've asked a few and their first guess is about 3X what they payed for their Martin or Taylor. One of the guys I asked has a D45 and still thinks a custom guitar is out of his league.

Another issues is buying a guitar without playing it first. I was with a friend who was buying a Martin OM-28 and he spent the better part of an afternoon doing A/B comparisons between two identical models before deciding which one he wanted to buy. I can't imagine this guy ever commisioning a custom guitar though he might buy one "off the rack".

However, I have recently detected a change in the thinking of my musician friends in regards to custom instruments. I might be because I build and have told them about other luthiers in our area. But, several have recently discussed getting a custom instrument or maybe just buying an instrument from a local builder that was ready made. Perhaphs the increase in the number of builders has stirred more buyers to consider the indepandant builder.

Don, is right, however, $3K seems to be the bare minimum for a guitar by an indepantant luthier. $3K ain't what it used to be however. That is the price range for a middle of the road Santa Cruz or Huss & Dalton and Taylor and Martin's upper-middle range is about that price as well. If I were to consider "going pro", I'd aim for the $5K market. Even then I'd have to sell 15-20 a year.

Who knows? There may come a time when any "serious" guitarest will have to have a custom guitar. I think that that is already true for classical players.

Disclaimer: Noob perspective

I don't know how you could get into building instruments and not at least have a passing thought of, "I wonder if I could do this for a living?" And it's not uncommon for friends to ask when I'm going to quit my job to start building... and I haven't even finished a guitar yet.

As far as guys hanging out their shingle with only a couple guitars under their belt... God bless 'em if they can dedicate themselves to it and live on peanuts while they pursue guitar making fulltime. It'd take a big chunk of your life to rack up 200 builds in your spare time left over from the day job. And Lord help them when the guitars come back for repairs. The market will even things out, I doubt anyone's really getting a free ride.
letseatpaste38938.7601736111

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

To paraphrase:" The lute fell, the banjo fell, the guitar's turn will come".

As has been pointed out, the current guitar boom is Boomers building and selling to other Boomers. With any luck some of the ones who want guitars will outlast me, and I'll be busy as long as I want to be. ;)

The current trend toward CNC by small luthiers may not be the best way to go, IMO. Given the variability of wood, tighter tolerances in part sizes means less control over tone. Without some way to 'tweak' things you have to end up like the big production shops, building to averages and hoping for the best.

Certainly economic conditions can be telling. Those of us who were building in the '70s do not remember the time fondly. Back then most of the shakeout I noticed was in dulcimer makers; next time it will be guitars. The present economic climate, which favors dividends over wages, does favor us, as luxury producers. An interesting dilema for some of us.

There will always be room at the top, but there is always the question of where the top is. All of those pearl-encrusted banjos that were built a hundred years ago still sounded like banjos, and when that sound went out of fashion, they became museum pieces. Remember when you could buy a good Gibson archtop for a song, because Rock and Folk had pushed Jazz off the charts? What's going to happen to all of today's 'eay candy' when the Singer-Songwhiners fold their tents and go home? OTOH, Strad made some pretty basic looking fiddles, and there seems to end in sight to the demand for them. That's why I'm banking on tone. I could be wrong.

Most of the buyers don't care as much as we'd like to believe about 'handmade', I think. Every so often the thread comes up, and the concensus is that they're after results, for the most part. It's interesting that we're seeing the rise of specialty shops that do certain opperations. It started out with finishing, since a legel spray rig for shooting nitro is so expensive. The guys who had set them up started to do finishes for other makers, amortizing a large investment and becoming better at it through practice. The customers got a better job cheaper, and didn't care that it was no longer one set of hands. Now we get CNC cut necks and inlay, and even bracing, and, of course, nobody cuts their own pearl strip or dots. It's quite plausible that we'll see instruments bearing the name of the final assembly shop, but with very few parts actually made in that shop from start to finish. There's nothing wrong with that: there's a lot of evidence that similar plans had been followed by lute and violin makers in the past, even during the 'Golden Ages' of these instruments. It does mean that luthiers become more designers and assembly people, who may do some 'fine tuning'. Is this a diminution of the craft? Who can say?

I could probably go on, but this has no doubt raised enough hackles for now. Good thread, Don!

[QUOTE=WarrenG] Some people are delusional.
There is not enough business to go around - as some have alluded to the loss of the baby boomers and another paradigm shift in personal priorities. [/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but that is absolutely positively not true.

If you are only making 6, 12, 20 guitars a year the loss of the baby boomers is not going to impact your market. Not if you are building a good product and doing even a remotely average job of marketing.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] To paraphrase:" The lute fell, the banjo fell, the guitar's turn will come".

As has been pointed out, the current guitar boom is Boomers building and selling to other Boomers. With any luck some of the ones who want guitars will outlast me, and I'll be busy as long as I want to be. ;)

The current trend toward CNC by small luthiers may not be the best way to go, IMO. Given the variability of wood, tighter tolerances in part sizes means less control over tone. Without some way to 'tweak' things you have to end up like the big production shops, building to averages and hoping for the best.

Certainly economic conditions can be telling. Those of us who were building in the '70s do not remember the time fondly. Back then most of the shakeout I noticed was in dulcimer makers; next time it will be guitars. The present economic climate, which favors dividends over wages, does favor us, as luxury producers. An interesting dilema for some of us.

There will always be room at the top, but there is always the question of where the top is. All of those pearl-encrusted banjos that were built a hundred years ago still sounded like banjos, and when that sound went out of fashion, they became museum pieces. Remember when you could buy a good Gibson archtop for a song, because Rock and Folk had pushed Jazz off the charts? What's going to happen to all of today's 'eay candy' when the Singer-Songwhiners fold their tents and go home? OTOH, Strad made some pretty basic looking fiddles, and there seems to end in sight to the demand for them. That's why I'm banking on tone. I could be wrong.

Most of the buyers don't care as much as we'd like to believe about 'handmade', I think. Every so often the thread comes up, and the concensus is that they're after results, for the most part. It's interesting that we're seeing the rise of specialty shops that do certain opperations. It started out with finishing, since a legel spray rig for shooting nitro is so expensive. The guys who had set them up started to do finishes for other makers, amortizing a large investment and becoming better at it through practice. The customers got a better job cheaper, and didn't care that it was no longer one set of hands. Now we get CNC cut necks and inlay, and even bracing, and, of course, nobody cuts their own pearl strip or dots. It's quite plausible that we'll see instruments bearing the name of the final assembly shop, but with very few parts actually made in that shop from start to finish. There's nothing wrong with that: there's a lot of evidence that similar plans had been followed by lute and violin makers in the past, even during the 'Golden Ages' of these instruments. It does mean that luthiers become more designers and assembly people, who may do some 'fine tuning'. Is this a diminution of the craft? Who can say?

I could probably go on, but this has no doubt raised enough hackles for now. Good thread, Don![/QUOTE]

I was wondering when you would weigh in

I take the opposite side of the aisle on CNC (surprise!!), I have done inlay by hand and made my own dots. I've cut my own sides and backs and tops, but I find it easier and more effecient to just buy those things from someone who makes a living with them. In the long run it's cheaper IMO, but if I can cut my time down by using the CNC machine to make parts then I become more effecient and stand a better chance of actually making a bit of money and adding some stability to my platform. It's not that I can't do those things by hand now, it's just that when I don't have to I can spend time working on other things instead.

CNC is a tool, like a jointer or a tablesaw, I could if I needed to make guitars without them but why would I want too. The same with the thickness sander, before I got mine I planed my tops down. It took a good long time to get them right, but I don't think they were 'better' tops because of that, the ones I turn out now on the thickness sander are just as good and require much less effort on my part. That being said, there are some a good number of things I do by hand like joining tops and backs, tuning tops and doing bracing is all done by hand and I even use hide glue. Not very modern at all, but some things can't be replaced by technology.

I have also found that true 'Players' really don't care who makes a guitar or how it's made, they care mostly about sound and feel. I have a fanned fret sitting right here that the owner 'shaved' the neck down the truss rod and that I now have to fix, he didn't care that his work made the instrument I originally built for him look garish, all he wanted was a much much thinner neck. So I'm building him a new neck, I was horrified when I saw what he had done . So I think your right on the money there, but if I can get it sounding really good and make it feel good AND make it look good then I'll have achieved all my goals (still trying to do that by the way, not sure if I will ever get there)...

Cheers

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] [QUOTE=WarrenG] Some people are delusional.
There is not enough business to go around - as some have alluded to the loss of the baby boomers and another paradigm shift in personal priorities. [/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but that is absolutely positively not true.

If you are only making 6, 12, 20 guitars a year the loss of the baby boomers is not going to impact your market. Not if you are building a good product and doing even a remotely average job of marketing.

[/QUOTE]

I very much agree with Brock on this one, there are tons of working musicians out there who don't fall into the baby boomer category. They are the hardest to build for but the most satsifying when you get it right, they aren't going anywhere and a builder who can do repairs and setups could end up in a good situation with enough work to keep them busy for a long time. The question is do you want to build or do repairs or balance both??

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

Generations will come and go, and the acoustic guitar still is a medium is and will be used by all generations. When the Boomers are retired and no longer buying guitars, the X'ers will be. Maybe not in the same amounts, but they will have money of their own.

Obviously, nobody can predict what will actually happen, but if nothing else, this thread will allow us to pause and weigh the costs, do some soul-searching, and allow us to make decisions regarding where we want our building to go, whether it be to a more professional level, or to focus on being a hobbiest who gives them away, or on occasion sells one to a friend.

If we want to make a vocation of building guitars, we absolutely need to be aware of the ever-changing market we're entering. We need to understand the trends and have a clue what people want and expect. Entering blindly will more often then not spell disaster for the uninformed and those who don't look at the numbers carefully. Brock nailed a big part of it...that we're not just building guitars, we're selling the romance of them as well.
Still, many who don't have the chops for both the visual and technical end of the process will come to that realization eventually, hopefully before they've spent their life savings trying it.
From a financial perspective, there are millions of better ways to make money to support a family. Some of us have mentioned the passion and desire for building, and without it we would fail miserably, but without the chops, we still will, unless we're marketing geniuses. Few of us will do this full-time, and it's smart to have a clear understanding of where we are at and where we want to go before jumping in wrecklessly.

Europe is becoming no different than here due to the availability of information. We have several folks here on the OLF from several European countries who are self-taught to some degree, and are producing some fine instruments. Generalizations of the old guild systems there are pretty out of date now. People will find a way to build stringed instruments if that's what they want to do, no matter where they are. Getting paid might be another matter entirely, but the technical information is available. The genie has been let out of the bottle to enough of a degree to allow that to happen.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Brock your right.

Just my .02 cents here and my own not to be reflected on the great luthier I work for.

To be successful, you must become a "brand". Those
who have done it, did so by hard work, not getting totally discouraged at the pitfalls and giving up. They know how and do most all of the work in the shop. This includes building tools, jigs, cauls, whatever, and doing the finish work to boot. They may sub out and buy pre made things now, and even sub out or do other things, but they can do it all and have done it all a bunch. Those who will follow the ones now making it now, will do it just as these folks have, and there is room for that.

Like any business endeavor, the ones who make it and do well are better than average and know how to make themselves a brand in whatever field they are in. It just doesn't happen with good thoughts from friends and loved one. It takes more than building a "nice" guitar. My mentor and boss once told me, "if you think your really good, go to a good show and see the guitars built by the ones really making it in this business . You may rethink how good you are". He also encouraged me in what to strive for, and all started new in this business. But it has a cost and isn't easy.

I think it is great there is such a love for guitars and building. I am sure more are doing this as a hobby rather than thinking of doing it as their only source of income. I can't think of a better hobby (well golf and trout fishing are right up there) Most here are into it as a hobby and will stay there or at best have this as a second income. It takes a real burning in the gut and desire to be a pro at this as it is in any field of endeavor. There are probably more that are not successful as a full timer, than those who do really well. But if one has a talent and desire, they will not know success if they don't try. One thing though, as Dirty Harry said, " A man (women too) has to know his/her limitations"

I think a lot of building today are like the golfers a generation ago (80' and 90's) and it is a fad that will pass in time. Those who really work at it and do well, will be like those they followed. That is earned their chops by hard work, having more than average talent, marketing (becoming a brand) and not giving up, as it will be hard. There will always be a market for fine handmade guitars from the small shop. There will be folks who take over for the great ones today and in time they too will be the great ones. But it just doesn't happen. it is made to happen by hard work, not giving up and when opportunity meets desire.

I hope and am sure there will always be the hobby builder or folks who make for others as a gift or small income. I hope so.

[QUOTE=TonyKarol]As for the euro comment .. is it still the case that in some countries, you CANT just start building and call yourself a luthier - you HAVE to apprentice and get papers saying as such. What a crock. [/QUOTE]
This is new to me, do you know in which countries this is common practice?

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Arnt, I think Tony was arguing against the notion that you have to apprentice in Europe....

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Great thread guys.

My thoughts:

Very few builders are able to charge what their expertise is actually worth. It simply takes too many man hours to make a guitar. When the average person looks at a guitar they don't see the 80-100 hours it took to make.

Standards of living continue to rise both here and overseas. Each generation of consumers seem to have more disposable income and are more willing to spend it.

There's never been a better time to be a consumer of virtually any retail product. Globalization and mass production have led to the best, shiniest, fastest and cheapest widgets the world has ever known.

It's also never been a better time to be a maker of a boutique product. The 'net has made it possible to reach tens of thousands of consumers who are actively trying to seek you out. True they are savvy with access to more information than ever before, but I believe many of them are willing to pay for something special especially when it comes to an emotional purchase. Look, sound, feel - they're all pretty subjective.

While mass production can be credited with creating uniform, high quality, inexpensive products it's also created a void. The "any color you want as long as it's black" mentality necessary to maximize efficiency (and minimize cost) leaves the door wide open to those who can compete on a different level. It won't be price, but maybe it's customer service or specialization (such as 10 string classicals).

That said, How do you become a millionaire making guitars? Start with $2 million. You do it because you love it not because it pays the bills...


Bob K

Oh, I see (sorry if I sounded upset, I was just surprised). Well, I do know that in Germany you can still get a fancy diploma saying you are now Journeyman Luthier or some such after a period of apreticeship and having your skills judged by a board. There even used to be a musical instrument maker's school school here in Norway (Musikk Instrument Akademiet, now closed because of finanial fraud among other things) that had and exchange program with German luthiers ending with the students recieving diploms like that, but I never heard of any place where this was required in order to practice luthierie, not since 1850 or so anyways.Arnt38938.8535300926

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Arnt .. having never been, or really knowing anyone in any/all countries, I wasnt sure - I know that it used to be like that, just not sure how long ago that was.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Good thread Don.

I think that we are entering the golden age. True, many people are building their own with kits or from scratch, but as someone said, the cream rises to the top...

If you're a guitar nut (which I think there are a few here ) you can't help but be in awe when you hold a top-end custom guitar. There's just no way that can be reproduced by a machine, never!   There's something unique, something intangeable about a hand made guitar. It's got soul, man...

However, it's funny to think that in order to be successful, your guitars have to look like they were made by a machine. Ironic, no?

This begs the question, what makes a guitar worth 10K+??? I'm not a custome expert, but I'd be ready to bet my last dollar that every geetar that commands that kind of money is flawless in build quality. Period. By the time you can produce a flawless instrument, a la Heshtone, Karoll and Krangenbrink, you're in the money.

Of course it will sound good. It can't sound bad. As Al Carruth once said, if it looks like a guitar, it will probably sound like a guitar! I might be over simplifying here, but you get the idea. Of course many thing can be said about thicknesses and bracing patterns and all that experience...

Now, as the market expands and more people become aware of the possibility of having a hand made instrument, I believe it's only going to get better and better. The cream rises, my friends, the cream always rises...

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...