Official Luthiers Forum!

At the end of the day it is hard to say without seeing the instrument, but by the looks of the photograph it has moved since the finish was applied, it could be that it is just bad luck and it has cracked and will go no further, at that point it is simply a question of gluing the crack, applying cleats to the back to reinforce, and then making good the finish. If the wood was too wet when it was built, it will continue to dry and you may find that other cracks and splits appear.

Whilst not a definative test if you put your hand inside and place your palm against the wood it should not feel cold, if it does it isn't dry.

I think you are acting in a very patient and considerate manner, but at the end of the day I think you should seek a solution that leaves you satisfied with the end product, if that is to have the faults rectified locally, return for repair, or ask for a replacement instrusment, or refund, you will have to judge.

[QUOTE=MSpencer] This is unfortunate for all involved
but a great lesson lies within here for everyone. There are many great and wonderful builders out there
in guitar land and many are here on the OLF. Many
dream of the day when getting a "commission" or being able to realize full or part time income off their work is somewhere around the corner. The transition from
hobbyist to professional as many here can attest is not an easy jump. Knowledge obtained through experience about woods, proper aging, and a host of structural and
aesthetic values come in time with hard work and
through trial and error. There is nothing at least to
me that I have found overly easy about the art of
lutherie and although a student for many years, still a
hobbyist. The success stories are few while a desire to
be successful in this business is shared by many. I have seen many first instruments posted here on the OLF
that are exceptional, as well our friends here like
Hesh who just completed #10 does exceptional work and I personally would be willing to "commission" from him
(If I purchased guitars).

I have seen many a discussion over the past year
about "learning the craft", carving your own neck vs.
buying one, knowing how to hand plane to thickness top, backs & sides vs. using equipment, bending sides vs. buying pre-bent, fingerboards, bridges, and the
list goes on an on. This is not intended to be a criticizm toward anyone in their approach to building because we all can do it the way we like, however, with
the suppliers product lines we have available, you can
just be an assembler which I don't really know if that
is the same as a Luthier. I wish I could play like
Eric Clapton or Jimmie Hendrix (if I played electric),
and I can or could if I was willing to learn, practice
and put in the time (maybe not as good as either).


I feel for both parties here, but hope that all my
friends here on the OLF are patient with their learning
curve and skills in this art form and don't get in to
big of a hurry to get into the guitar business.

I hope it all works out for both builder and customer


Mike
White Oak, Texas   [/QUOTE]


Again, maybe it is me, but I think we all need to hold
ourselves to the highest standard possible. I
certainly understand that "things happen" but this is
cut and dried to me, it needs fixed or replaced period.



I am not being harsh by saying this. This guitar has a
problem. I am not making a value judgement on the builder's ability or character. It is just something
that needs to be dealt with.

Send it back to the states and ask the luthier to fix
it. My guess is he will be more than willing to do so -- nobody (scratch that... almost nobody) wants bad
product in the marketplace.

Brock Poling38955.6030555556

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Got to agree with that Brock

Russ

I understand. Thanks once again. Very insightful.

Me thinks to a large extent the err (if any) may be on my part.

He never promoted himself as established, in fact, he was initially selling these in the like manner of many learning luthiers, in order to obtain reviews from musicians and feedback.

Perhaps dealing with him in every aspect of its finish *I* have been the one getting a bit carried away in terms of expectations.

A great deal of time and thought has gone into this instrument for me, it is actually leaning on difficult to part with already. Costs aside...

What is the cost of a full back replacement out of curiosity? (generally speaking, less cost of wood) Time involved, labor, methodology, etc.

Must it be the same type of ebony?

Any direction greatly appreciated once again.

phppar38955.6814930556

P.,

I think your best course of action at this point is to take the guitar to an experienced luthier and get his opinion on its workmanship and longevity issues, and how much it will cost to repair.

If you pay someone to replace the back, I think you'll find it to be shockingly expensive. I think perhaps $200 - $300.00 (US) for just the wood (ebony is especially costly), and another $300 - $500.00 for the labor. Labor could cost even more, depending on the luthier and the current demand for his time.

Almost anything on a guitar is reparable, but you have to decide if the cost will be too much.

Also, if you take it to a luthier, be sure to tell him about the buzzing sound you heard. It could mean that something is not properly glued on the inside, and it would have to be repaired along with the back.

I was in a somewhat contentious discussion over on the
UMGF and am in a discussion on the AGF right now
regarding satisfaction guarantees and luthiers'
responsibilities to their customers. In general I come
down on the "customer is always right" side of things,
but I think I'm going to go against what seems to be the
consensus here.

I think it's right of the luthier to offer a part of the
price of the guitar back, and since it does not meet
what the impartial observer would consider to be the
expected level of quality I think it's reasonable to
accept a partial refund.

But I think the guitar should be sent back at the
buyer's expense if it's sent back, and I think a full
refund is definitely not reasonable.

The seller did not represent himself as an accomplished
guitar builder with a provent track record and the
buyer entered into the agreement fully aware of the
experience level of the builder...and I would assume
paid a lower price because of it.

The problem with buzzing is a setup problem of some kind
and should have been taken care of by the luthier before
the guitar was sent out, but because of humidity and
temperature changes in shipping it's quite common to
receive a factory or custom instrument with a less-than-
optimal setup. The wood cracks don't seem to be a
reflection of the building technique but rather an
unfortunate consequence of a builder who hasn't bought
and used a ton of wood working with a buyer who wanted
something exotic. Seems like the responsibility to
research the potential problems with Ebony should have
been a shared one.

And while I can sympathize with the frustration of
having to pay high shipping costs to get the guitar
repaired, the distance between Italy and GA is not at
all the fault of the builder...and it seems as if he
didn't go out of his way to solicit an overseas buyer
but was, however, willing to work with one and the extra
risks and hassles that an international transaction
presents.

That's just how I see it as an impartial observer.

Andrew

Thoughts appreciated, however:

Expected quality?

The instrument cracked, completely through in the back within a little over a day.

The responsibilites to research the possible problems of the ebony should have been a shared one?

You goto the doctor, you tell him how to operate?! You research it beforehand to help? ok....

Ebony I initially had reservations on, but he had calmed my concerns.

Remember something, I am a *musician* not a *luthier* . . never pretended to be.

I have gone far and beyond any common musician's role studying lutherie to try and understand matters.

Price is irrelevant and a moot point. The full refund was his offer and I never expected (although should have) that this thread would be focused on the luthier and not the guitar, which was the question and advice needed (moreso than the luthier).


Although very helpful, my needs have little to do with any problems regarding the luthier really (hence my lengthy kind remarks and understanding) as much as should I fix it, what caused them, expense of repair, etc...

Again, he would do whatever was necessary I feel. Should I wish to repair it, refund, etc..

I have been very kind and understanding here...and we've reached an amicable resolution...However..

..it was a business arrangement, in every way..Yes I think he promoted himself as a little too capable and experienced perhaps...but I am not bitter.

Yet you should understand I was not purchasing it with the idea of being a crash test dummy. He knew clearly what I was after.


Should you choose to sell an instrument my friend, or any creation, you cross the line of hobbiest to that of professional. You then inherit all responsibilities.


This was clear and *I* am attempting to be understanding due to the above disclosed aspects. I am now paying only material costs.

It is of course impossible to describe the dealings further here, and it is really unnecessary.

I must decide whether I wish to keep it, should I repair it, should I return it, what is fair for us both...as I feel his offer too generous (until I shined the flashlight through the cracks that is..Now I know why they are black lines...)


Thanks nonetheless.
Certainly glad I am not purchasing an instrument from you however..


phppar38955.998287037

[QUOTE=phppar]

Ebony I initially had reservations on, but he had calmed my concerns.[/QUOTE]

That changes things - I somehow thought that the ebony
had been your request from the beginning.

[QUOTE]
Price is irrelevant and a moot point. The full refund was his offer and I never expected (although should have) that this thread would be focused on the luthier and not the guitar, which was the question and advice needed (moreso than the luthier). [/QUOTE]

My apologies for contributing to the process of it
moving away from your main question, then.



[QUOTE]
Yet you should understand I was not purchasing it with the idea of being a crash test dummy. He knew clearly what I was after. [/QUOTE]

Point well taken, yet it's hard to consider anything
before, say, guitars #24 and #25 as something other
than an "experiment" of sorts.

[QUOTE]
Thanks nonetheless.
Certainly glad I am not purchasing an instrument from you however..
[/QUOTE]

Were you purchasing a guitar from me, you would have a
stated 72 hr satisfaction guarantee, so my off-the-cuff
opinion (all that my earlier post consisted of) would
be totally irrelevant.

Unless you had established a satisfaction guarantee or
trial period with the builder, I wouldn't necessarily
say that it's implied in a builder/client
relationship...hence the questions here and elsewhere
concerning the nature of luthiers' responsibilities.


As for the guitar:
Crack repairs are fairly minor in the scheme of things,
but I would think that future cracking is inevitable.
I saw a Lucas Brazilian guitar recently where the top side had
cracked in something like 20 places. I think if a wood
set is prone to cracking for whatever reason (inherent
tendencies of the species, improper or insufficient
curing, overthinning by the luthier, etc.) it's likely
to continue cracking whenever exposed to the
atmospheric changes that triggered the first batch.

As I'm sure you know by now, buzzing can be caused by
any number of things and could cost you anywhere from
$10 for a quick saddle shim to $500+ for a full refret,
fingerboard planing, bridge replacement, neck reset,
or who knows what else.

Again, sorry for misinterpreting your question and
providing a response that wasn't helpful to you. Good
luck with whatever you decide to do with the guitar,
and I hope your future custom guitar purchases work out
much better.

Andrewharmonist3438956.0112615741

No need to apologize. At this stage of the game I am certain to be a bit on edge...

He did initially offer a 2 week return. We seem to have come to this agreement.

The instrument has possibilities, and as I have a life in another profession (or did), I have been truly trying to do all I can to salvage the situation.

Yes, I am aware of all the many causes of buzzing.

It is not the frets, headstock, etc. It is occuring on open strings, strong chords all today...

I notice at the bridge (rosewood) that there is a hairline that goes from A string to edge at low E string.

Viewing it's profile it does not go completely through it seems. Perhaps an imperfection, scratch not finished well giving an illusion.


Humidity is registering 58% on digital hygrometer FYI.


The bracing used is an asymmetrical latttice system. None that has been used on any known guitar I am aware of..

Smallman and Redgate use horizontal I believe.

I could be certain he stated he was using carbon fiber, but it is wood/balsa?

Lead to future problems?

Now, from my expereince in many of these kinds of things at least, I realize less is usually more, especially when it would come to more within = more to vibrate.

It seems rather overly complex and overkill from other traditional designs I have seen.

As said above, does he want his name out there when I advertise it as a cracked instrument by him?

It may be coming to that.


I will certainly notify him beforehand of course.

The argument *for* artisan-luthier insturments mad ein factory is making itself present however in all of this.


Ah Hell, I never say die...I will probably end up learning guitar restoration too..and/or spend the $ to repair it properly.

Many thanks to all once again.
p




phppar38956.0648842593

there has been much of value said regarding the luthier/client relationship in this thread. that being said i would like to offer a contrarian viewpoint.

the cracks shown in the photo run across the grain. whilst i have not worked with macassar ebony, in almost 50 years of working wood, i have not seen seasoning checks or seasonal cracking which runs across the grain.

and the cracks illustrated are consistent with impact damage which as we know is an ever presemt risk when shipping, especially with a brittle wood. which to me raises a wholly different set of questions: packaging, case used, etc.

I was thinking that the guitar was purchased knowing that the cracks existed. If not, then the builder has a responsibility to the client to make repairs to the cracks or replace it if possible. As to the setup, that too needs to be addressed if it is buzzing. Those kinds of things should be covered under the warranty, and the builder should make good on the repairs.
Although I said that some woods are destined to crack, it doesn't mean that the builder should not be aware of his/her responsibility to deal with them if they arrise sooner rather than later.

Michael, I've seen cracks just like those that were caused by a guitar that (I think)dried out excessively. It was left in a room with a woodstove, out of the case.
Anything is possible here, but unfortunately it happedned, and the builder should deal with it under warranty regardless. It comes with the territory.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Here again is the quote from the orginal post above. I realize it was "long" but the question is answered here:

"I wanted to discuss one issue with you, however. Before guitars are built, it is customary to fill all surface checks, holes, cracks, grain inconsistencies, etc. with CA glue (you can read more about this on any of
the guitar/luthier forums). There was an area on the back that I filled and is somewhat visible in the finished guitar. The surface check is in no way going to cause a problem structurally (as it was filled with very
strong material before the guitar was even built), but you can see the indentation in the urethane. Again, it is slight and can only be seen at a certain angle in a certain light. It is equivalent to gutiars where you
can see where the backstrip/perfling/binding meet the body of the guitar through the finish (the finish will settle on these areas differently than it sits on the rest of the guitar because of the glue/epoxy that is used
to hold them in place). The issue could be alleviated by adding more finish and sanding, but I did not want to lose the beauty of a thinner finish and risk sanding through the finish on the other areas of the guitar. If this occurred, the entire guitar would need to be refinished and very likely would not look as good as it does. I do not think this is a big deal, but wanted to let you know what was going on."




Again, it arrived and was packaged very securely and arrived very safely. it was not at all tampered with. I know this for fact.

It did not arrive in this condition.

Further, these "checks" are indeed cracks which a flashlight can clearly shine through.


This thread, for obvious reasons, has focused more on the luthier/client relationship.

I have been more interested in the repair of these cracks.


A respected luthier in the States has just responded stating these cracks cannot be permanently repaired.

Full back replacement is in order to properly solve the problem...

This of course is contrary to most other things I have read stating that back cracks such as these are a simple affair to repair and are quite permanent.

So, where are we?
pphppar38956.859212963

P.,

As I mentioned earlier, almost anything on a guitar is reparable. It depends on the type and extent of the damage as to how easy it will be to repair; and how much you are willing to spend to have the work done. This instrument may not be worth the time and cost to you, but that can't be determined until you take it to a repairman and get a hands-on evaluation.

Just as a physician can't give a proper diagnosis without seeing the patient, any advice given to you about the condition of your guitar without seeing it is only conjecture. Please don't be too harsh with the folks here. They're only trying to help, and we all do understand your frustration.

Let us know what you decide if you take it to a luthier for inspection. We will be interested in what he says, and in what you think.

Where's Luigi??? We've got a man in Italy.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I'm sure any respected luthier knows several million times what I know about building and repairing guitars...

but if those cracks were on a 1939 D-45, you're telling me that the only option out there would be to replace the back?!

Andrew

don, as to guitars left in rooms out of cases, impact damage would be my first suspect, regardless of the interior climate, and the owners claims.

i have used wood where i have closed cracks in brittle wood, e.g. ziricote, prior to use, when the cracks were on grain lines, i.e. typical "climate" cracks.

i would not use wood which was cracked across the grain to build with, ever.

as we will never know the actual cause of the problem, continued discussion is not going to resolve the issue.

but the cracks are repairable, albeit at a cost to someone. the owners must determine whom he will hold responsible.

harmonist34, if the wood is "green" and was not cured properly from the beginning as some here suggest and now is under a sealed finish, anyone attempting a repair vs. replacement could be moving themselves on pretty unsteady ground. I don't believe anyone has verified that this is the case, but if it turns out to be the case, what else could be done. This wood at optimum aging and curing process from what I can gather from "The Don" and others has the cracking tendancies, but you throw in uncured to the mix and man o man I don't know what one could expect after the repair. If it was "green" or uncured wood used on the 1939 D-45 example, I would expect that the guitar would by now 2006 be nothing short of a CA guitar with a little ebony added in for flavor.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

For anyone interested in the satisfaction guarantee topic, this is turning out to be a pretty good discussion:

AGF thread

Andrew

Thank you all once again:

No, I did not in any way wish to appear "harsh" in replies. Accept my apology and stress as it is. It has been a heck of an ordeal which I havenlt time for at the moment. I have a new instrument in its case without strings that I have not played...


Speaking with the fellow, he states thit is a "Texas Ebony" ??

And was dried for 5 yrs prior to its sale, and the luthier stated that he adheres to climate control very strictly within his shop.

Can a prospective luthier determine upon viewing if it is "still green" and repairable?


My final question until I get some real eyes on it.

Thank you all once again. Immeasurably helpful *all*.
Again, excuse short fuse.

phppar38957.7768171296

From HEMBROOK Custom Bases and Guitars, Texas.

......Texas Ebony

Texas Ebony is a member of the Legume family, Pithecellobrium flexicaule. It is very similar to Mesquite and is closely related. In the Mimosa family, the tree is shrubby and grows up to 60 feet tall, and three feet in diameter. It is rare, growing only in southern Texas and northern Mexico. The wood is extremely hard and dense, and very durable. A dark Chocolate brown to black, with distinct striping in the grain, it polishes to a mirror shine. It takes frets extremely well and once dried properly it is extremely stable and won't warp with changes in humidity. Difficult to work and rare, but its extreme density (sinks in water), color, polish and stability are everything you could ask for in a fingerboard.
Limited availability, we sometimes run out of stock on this wood.

Site information based on data supplied by the U.S. Forest Service and Windsor Plywood.

Bump...Mike?

five years of drying should then qualify it as stable. but it is a brittle wood and as such vulnerable to cracking from impact. crazymanmichael38957.9072453704

Jeanne, I have never heard of this wood or used it personally. Interesting that it sinks in water. With the write up commenting on this and the "extreme density" the length of time required to properly cure is certainly a question.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

[QUOTE=MSpencer] Jeanne, I have never heard of this wood or used it personally. Interesting that it sinks in water. With the write up commenting on this and the "extreme density" the length of time required to properly cure is certainly a question.

Mike
White Oak, Texas[/QUOTE]

I thought you might find this interesting being with you hailing from Texas.

I found of interest the use in fretboards and could find no mention in my search of it being applied in a larger guitar portion.

Very interesting.

Thank you very much Jeanne for providing this information.

It was very kind of you and very appreciated.

Could it be that I own the *only* classical instrument with body of this ebony?

I realize I am special, but....

The argument that damage occured in shipping is a bit moot as he knew of the "check" and prepaired this and other "small imperfections" prior to even building the instrument.

So that tends to rest my mind on that possibility.

Have taken it to a local luthier to have it restored.

Will update in gratitude for help.

Hopefully will serve others all of this in some way.

Best regards.

phppar38959.6563657407