Official Luthiers Forum!

Cool
Thanks Brock and Lance

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Great site, Brock and Lance! I have the same rendering thing with the logo on a Mac, OSX, Safari and Firefox. IE is OK.

Registration was fine on FF.

Thanks, guys!burbank38967.816412037

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Hmmmm, call me what you will, but has this forum just about lost the last bits of its innocence?

I mean, the OLF was built, as are most forums, around the idea of free exchange of ideas and knowledge, and alongwith that, comes the casual "hey! anyone have a piece of rosewood to help me out, since I broke my last one?", to the "I bought way too much wood last year and need to sell some, I have XXXXX amount of spruce for sale, drop me a note" posts.

But now, everything seems to have an official place, and for a price(albeit small, but a price none the less).

It's all nice and fun, but are we drifting too far from shore? I mean, next time I have a money or time saving tip for someone, should I ask for 0.01$ of each OLF member's savings from that tip? If someone came along in the StewMac buffer thread, and said "I know where y'all can get these for half price, so PayPal me $5 and I'll let you know..." Sure, it would be worth 5 clams to save 50, but where does it stop? I had to pay my dues the hard way, at my costs, yet I freely share everything.

Lance, you have(had? is this place still yours?) a nice and open forum here, but I've been feeling, lately, that it's much too commercial, and beginning to be uncomfortable to be around.

Or?

What an excellent idea !! Congratulations and my sincere thanks for all of the work you have put into making this forum and this community the worthwhile and thriving place that it is.   

The registration process went very smoothly and I agree with some of the above comments; I am using Firefox and the logo does partially obscure the first two buttons.

Best Regards,
Pete

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Peter

Even though I signed up at the auction site, I am amazed that Mario and I
agree on something (just kidding!). The original idea with the forum (and I
have been around since almost the beginning) was to freely share ideas and
help others. No fees or attitude involved. And, occasionally, you might offer
something to the members that you wanted to get rid of - usually at a very
good price. Mario has noticed it too, over the years that spirit seems to be
leaving the forum and with it, comes the feeling, at least for me, of not
participating as much. It is a fine balance and I hope it has not tipped to the
dark side.

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Sylvan
http://www.wellsguitars.com

This is great! I wish you both the best of luck!

I hate to say it, and readying myself for the wrath that may follow , I agree with Mario and Sylvan for the most part. However for me, I'm probably just becoming an old curmudgeon and don't like change.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Mario, Sylvan,
I understand where your coming from, I really do.
The OLF has been growing weekly from day 1, and there is nothing I can do or would want to do to stop that.
I very much enjoy the input from our newest members as much as the guys and gals that have been here since the beginning.
Along with the growth of the membership has been a gradual steady need for my time, so much so that I needed the help of another. Now Brock and I spend hours a day discussing and moderating this forum, much of it from behind the scenes.
Again, growth that we welcome.

With the addition of software, server, server hosting, etc the cost was way overboard for a single person to foot, hence the sponsors.
That brings us to today announcement.
The Luthiers Auctions site is separate from the OLF, they are not one in the same. Different URL, different server, different story all together.
The reason it was announced here at the OLF is because its the only place that we could stand and shout with out stepping on someones toes.
And more importantly, our member have been asking for such a site for a long time.

SO, be certain that the Luthiers Auctions site is NOT part of the OLF.
I hope this sheds a little light?

Lance

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Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=Don A] I hate to say it, and readying myself for the wrath that may follow , I agree with Mario and Sylvan for the most part. However for me, I'm probably just becoming an old curmudgeon and don't like change. [/QUOTE]

Go ahead guys, rain on our parade..
It was expected.

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Guys, I can understand your point of view on the matter and a part of me sympathises.

However, I also understand that running this site costs money. Business is business. And it is a separate 'entity' if you will. You can come to this site and never have to go to the auction site if you don't want to.

If I can encourage this forum in any way, I'll be happy to do it. Many times I'm a bit apprehensive buying anything off of eBay. I always feel it's a toss up.

Now I just have one question about this auction site. Do you need to be an OLF member to be able to register? Is so, good. If not, anyone from e-bay can register and then we'll just essentially have another e-bay with all the luthiers stuff from Thailand on there...

But, if I'm dealing with my OLF brethren, I see nothing wrong in that. In fact, it will be a little added insurance that you're dealing with quality merchandise as well as people.

Just a thought.

P.S. I too find it very fitting that our 'Doyen of the Zoot', our 'Master of Macassar', our very own 'Commander of Palisander', the 'Ebony Luminary', the illustrious 'Cocobolo Honcho', the 'Chairman of the boards!' is first at bat. How come I'm not surprised?

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

[QUOTE=LanceK]SO, be certain that the Luthiers Auctions site is NOT part of the OLF.
Lance[/QUOTE]
Aha! I didn't understand that part. Glad you clarified, Lance.

[QUOTE=Mario] Hmmmm, call me what you will, but has this forum just about lost the last bits of its innocence?

I mean, the OLF was built, as are most forums, around the idea of free exchange of ideas and knowledge, and alongwith that, comes the casual "hey! anyone have a piece of rosewood to help me out, since I broke my last one?", to the "I bought way too much wood last year and need to sell some, I have XXXXX amount of spruce for sale, drop me a note" posts.

But now, everything seems to have an official place, and for a price(albeit small, but a price none the less).

It's all nice and fun, but are we drifting too far from shore? I mean, next time I have a money or time saving tip for someone, should I ask for 0.01$ of each OLF member's savings from that tip? If someone came along in the StewMac buffer thread, and said "I know where y'all can get these for half price, so PayPal me $5 and I'll let you know..." Sure, it would be worth 5 clams to save 50, but where does it stop? I had to pay my dues the hard way, at my costs, yet I freely share everything.

Lance, you have(had? is this place still yours?) a nice and open forum here, but I've been feeling, lately, that it's much too commercial, and beginning to be uncomfortable to be around.

Or?[/QUOTE]


So... just so I have this straight.... Creating a marketplace that is democratic and allows you to sell the stuff that you don't need, want, etc. ... and in a way that does not openly compete with the firms who are keeping the lights on at the OLF is a BAD thing?

We are the only forum that I know of that has no axe to grind. We take virtually all comers, we are not full of cliques, with only a few exceptions virtually no topic is taboo.... and actual commerce takes place here.

Do we have a side that is commercial, you bet. The people who supply us do us a great service simply by being in business. How many of you would have ever met BobC if it wasn't for the OLF? Who would have heard about how great Steve @ Colonial is, or any of the other great things our sponsors provide. How many countless hours do they spend scouring the earth so we can have the best wood and supplies to build with.

I buy virtually 100% of my supplies from OLF sponsors. Many have grown into people I call friends. And again, I ask, is this a bad thing? Without those sponsors we could not pay the bills to keep the OLF running. So without them there would be no format to even hold this discussion. Commerce and free exchange are not competitive, they are symbiotic.

Not to mention all of the "free" information we exchange. How many money saving ideas have you got from the OLF. I certainly have got plenty. Anything that gives me a better way of doing something or saves me when I make a mistake has real, tangible value.

You know... nobody is getting rich doing any of this.



Brock Poling38967.9079976852

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Outstanding!!! Signed up no problems

BobP

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Bob Potter
Lenoir, North Carolina
U.S.A.

I think the site is a great addittion. Having a larger, high-traffic site on
the internet is expensive. They need a lot more care than a $4 a month
shared hosting, 10mb site. I hope it does well for you guys.

I took a screenshot of the issue. I'm using safari.

[IMG]useruploads/JamesOrr/2006-09-07_214917_luthierauction.jpg[/
IMG]James Orr38967.9099652778

[QUOTE=LanceK] Mario, Sylvan,
I understand where your coming from, I really do.
Lance[/QUOTE]

You're a bigger man than me, Lance, because I don't see where they're coming from. Not at all.

Here's my thoughts, in order:

Like the OLF? Come visit, and particpate according to the rules. Get to know people.   
Don't like the rules? Don't visit.
Want to buy something? Consider an OLF sponsor, or consider visiting Luthier's Auction, which is owned by the guy who owns the OLF.
Dont' want to buy something? Don't.

All this crap about "it's too commercial, we may be losing our innocence and I hope we're not headed to the dark side" is just that, crap. So, let me get this straight: The very people who feel this way SELL GUITARS OR GUITAR RELATED THINGS FOR A LIVING, BUT REALLY WOULD PREFER A COMMERCIAL FREE INTERNET FORUM IN WHICH TO PARTICIPATE?

Good grief...

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I'm not able to make the connection between the establishment of the auction site and the posts about the commercialization of the forum. To me there's a clear distinction between the exchange of ideas and the exchange of tangible items.

If the issue is sponsor involvement in or influence over the OLF, we can talk about commercialization and its positive and negative aspects. And maybe the posters were thinking along those lines when commenting on the auction site.

But as far as I'm concerned (not that anyone really cares), the auction site is a great idea and will be a tremendous asset to all of us who intend to use it.

Oh, and I'm thinking that anybody who wants to trade this for that, request a side to replace a broken one, etc. is going to be able to do that on the OLF without being forced onto the auction site, right?

Andrew

Well Bill's post hits it right on the head I guess and is indicative of the changes I've seen. I guess you need to have experienced the history of the other available forums to understand.   

Looks like I stepped it again As a seperate entity I see no problem and wish you both all the luck with your new venture.

Sorry for having differing opinions. I do however see it as competition for the sponsors whom we know we can trust. It will allow lots of people to sell, but you pay your money and take your chances (not unlike eBay). The recent trading at the OLF was a wonderful idea only because we knew the folks with whom we were dealing.

How many would not have discovered BobC? This could easily be turned around, How many discovered the OLF because of BobC?

Yes I've gained a tremendous amount of information from this forum and I've meagerly supported it from the beginning. Have I made good friends here, of course.    That makes it all the harder to say goodbye.       

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Lance and Brock:

I commend you for this new service. I now have more options available for me:
1)...hang out in the locker room and snap towels with my buddies.
2)...walk over to the auction site if I want to buy or sell something to or from someone who I know and trust.
3)...or leave.

I feel no threat that the dark side is lurking around the corner. I have no fear that the you and Brock are taking advantage of the members...you're my friends and I trust you. I also applaud you for your creativity and willingness to offer new and unique services.

When the subscriber offer was introduced last year we also had dissenters and that worked itself out...subscription was voluntary. So it is with the Auction Site...we can buy and sell or not. It seems to me that it is a good alternative to hanging out on Ebay. I have a feeling that this will work itself out as well.

Thanks for another option, boys!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I, for one, wholeheartedly support the addition of the SEPARATE entity. The need for finances to support an enterprise such as the OLF are grossly underreported.

Since I've joined the OLF, like many others, I've seen changes. It's part of the growth process. A forum or any other group of 1,000 members is not going to be the same as it was when it was 300. Group dynamics don't work that way. Same with the internet, same with a business, same with a family. Fact of life. Participate, celebrate and grow with it. Perhaps there's some new, little cozy luthier's site out there, but I'll stick with the OLF for awhile, and I intend to visit the auction site regularly too.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Creating a marketplace that is democratic and allows you to sell the stuff that you don't need, want, etc. ... and in a way that does not openly compete with the firms who are keeping the lights on at the OLF is a BAD thing?

Nope, I completely understand the need for forum spronsors, and the need for the forum to not directly compete against them. I said there'd be a need for that what, two years ago? Of that we are clear and understand.

And I have always supported all sponsors of all the forums I participate in; Larry Davis is my number one wood guy, Ed Dicks a close second, with Bob as my go-to cocobolo guy, hands down! when I'm shopping wood, I ask all of the sponsors for a quote, and no, I do NOT always go with the lowest quote for any one item, but often weight other factors in as well(past buying experience always weighs heavily for me).

I'm a race fan, and try to support the sponsors of my favorite drivers, also. I really do understand the sponsorship concept.

I -think- what strikes me wrong is that you seem to be creating a marketplace that may, in fact, compete directly against them. Like I say, I -think- that may be what struck me. Dunno, might just be having a bad day, too <g>

But, let me ask this, in all honesty; if it is(the auction site) indeed open to all of the public, how will it differ from eBay? If successful, it will, without a doubt, attract all the same eBay dealers, right?

And can anyone, still, offer up soemthing for sale here, as has always been done, or will that become taboo?

The very people who feel this way SELL GUITARS OR GUITAR RELATED THINGS FOR A LIVING, BUT REALLY WOULD PREFER A COMMERCIAL FREE INTERNET FORUM IN WHICH TO PARTICIPATE?

Well, first, I have not, and would not try to sell a guitar here, and I don't sell any related items, nor have I tried to sell any. In fact, when I offered Serge a red spruce mandolin top to help him get going, he asked what I'd charge for a few more; nothing, was my answer, but he's only getting the one, because I'm not in this to sell stuff. I'd rather give away one than sell three; call me weird, but I simply like -helping- good people. Serge is good people. If the mandolin bug bites him hard, he'll get more wood from the forum sponsors, I am sure.

I klnow a commercial-free forum is impossible' I was the one who told the owners, here, when they got going, that they would need sponsors at some point, to cover the costs of growing. What I'd like to see -remain- is a place where we are all free to mention other sources, to put up URL's, to put up the odd piece of whatever for sale, etc... Basicly, what I'd like is the OLF as it was, and what it was, was what allowed it to grow. What it was, was a simple, easy going place, with few posts that have hidden agendas, but with a great list of sponsors at the top of each page to go directly to for our needs.


I have no hidden agaenda; I just happen to like the place the way it was.

I registered without a problem. One concern though: I didn't enter any credit card info, but I did notice that this is not a secure site, so I would warn everyone NOT to enter cc info.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I feel bad now that I've registered.     I really agree pretty much with Mario. Even if it's not open to the public, what's to keep anyone from joining the OLF just to sell junk on the site? They won't last long, I'm sure, but they could register 1000 times.     

I don't really think it is about commercialism as much as it is losing the coziness and closeness of the OLF. I know from a business viewpoint it needs to grow, but for the close friends here, growing too large is a killer.

I've lived in the same town for 55 years and I'm really starting to dislike what it becomes as it grows. The business people love it, but what made it great is fading away.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Ron,

Good catch.

I generally don't give CC info if it's going to be stored on a site, preferring to enter it each time. I figure the fewer places it's stored, the better.

Brock, Lance, I didn't see any secure pages for login or account changes. mightn't this be a security issue?

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

[QUOTE=Mario] I -think- what strikes me wrong is that you seem to be creating a marketplace that may, in fact, compete directly against them. Like I say, I -think- that may be what struck me. Dunno, might just be having a bad day, too <g>

But, let me ask this, in all honesty; if it is(the auction site) indeed open to all of the public, how will it differ from eBay? If successful, it will, without a doubt, attract all the same eBay dealers, right?

And can anyone, still, offer up soemthing for sale here, as has always been done, or will that become taboo?[/QUOTE]

That is a valid point. However I see it a little differently. I think our sponsors have the MOST to gain from the auction site. I am sure most of us will agree that a large majority of the stuff on ebay that is being sold is junk. (I don't mean our sponsors who sell on ebay... but we have all seen it, and quite a number of us have been burnt by it.)

I can see sponsors selling large lots, excess inventory, off cuts, creating auctions to attract attention to their sites, etc.

However, I have seen some GREAT stuff on ebay not get anywhere close to the reserve or true maket value simply because people have no idea of the true value. I have seen (and bought) beautiful sets of coco and EIR that are perfectly straight grained on ebay for a pittance simply because nobody paid any attention to them. It just doesn't have enough sex appeal to get much attention on ebay.

The LA site will do some policing to keep that to a minimum (however, as the site grows, that will be tough). But, since this is a site that is set up for luthiers and our population is a little older and a little wiser it will be possible to see a smarter base of consumers. I think that is what will ultimately differentiate the LA from ebay.

I could even see guys who retire finding a good market for their wood, tools, supplies. Otherwise what options are available to them? Again, I think ebay is at best hit or miss...

I don't know... I just really think this can be a hit, and something anyone can benefit from, sponsors or individuals.

Brock Poling38968.0021759259

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com