Official Luthiers Forum!

Great posts everyone and I have to agree on humility. Now I want to point the finger at a few folk, one Frank Ford, he's answered many a greenhorn luthier question for me. That tells me he walks with humility.

The same holds true of Charlie Hoffman. Before I found the guys on the OLF, Charlie entertained and fielded many questions from yours truly. Why, doesn't he have better things to do? Sure he does, but he earned the right to speak to the apprentice luthier, having become a master of his craft. That tells me he walks with humility.

Of course I could point a finger or two in this thread, but don't want to embarass anyone, so I'll point to one of our own who is out of town, Sylvan Wells. How many of us have already benefitted in some way by Sylvan's salty comments? I'm one, he's a teacher through and through, part of his calling. That tells me he walks with humility.

Maybe its just as Terence says, best to be humble, even with all our abilities and avoid being humbled.

#1 ~ Being able to hide your mistakes

I was going to write a big serious dissertation on this but I just don't have the time, besides most of you have made the points I would have.

John O

I'll side wth the humility guys too. Not a bad attribute to have in your everyday life. Great posts from everyone.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

I voted for dedication. I think that means the complete and all pervading desire to get it right. This would of course involve being humble enough to know when it's wrong and just so much kindling, and to be persistent and diligent and all those other word.

By the way, my wife, Penny, tells me the most important attribute that helps towards my guitar making is HER patience!

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Being fairly new to guitar building, I'm obviously not an expert on what it takes to keep on doing it.

But it occurs to me that while humility is probably at or near the top of the list, the other side of that coin is a belief that you can do it. Believing that you could build the first one, and then believing that you can make the next one better. Most people, sadly, never get to believing they could make the first one.

Good point Paul,
Having an ”I can do this” attitude is important. It’s the things that drive us to instrument building that are important. Paul S. put it right with the idea of being passionate about the craft. Humility is easy to come by given the complexity of the craft. It would seem this is a prerequisite to luthiery. So I guess my vote gos to dedication. Dedicated to making wood sing; to making Art objects that also make Music.
This is a very cool thing.

_________________
Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

I think the most important thing is to have the maturity to walk away. To know when you're head isn't in the game that day. To know that its time to put the tools down before you make a problem a disaster.

Humility. Many have talked about it. A few folks in the community, generally, don't have it. There's nothing new in guitarmaking. Lots of things have been tried and discarded, sometimes because the material science wasn't there at that time, sometimes because the tack wasn't quite in the right direction. I think I can name on my hands the number of real innovations in lutherie over the past sixty years.

1. Bob Taylor's use of the threaded brass inserts for neck installation;
2. Linda Manzer's Wedge;
3. Tom Humphries elevated fingerboard;
4. Grit Laskin's armrest;
5. Taylor's NT neck system;
6. Richard Schneider's tailblock access panel.

Everything else is minor or just a materials change -- graphite in the neck for reinforcement and the like.

Aside from that, here's a little description of guitarmaking that I gave to someone who contacted me regarding education and wanting to leave his day job.

"Expect to spend the first ten years learning what you don't know, the next five or ten filling the holes, and your remaining time enjoying it, all the while knowing that at any point in the process, even once the client is happy, something can happen that can completely and utterly scuttle the project."

Paul I guess you are choosing Persistences

[quote]Poll Question: What attruibute do you feel is most important in mastering this craft.[/quote]

Again, I understand everyone wanting to talk about the intangibles here, and certainly humility, persistance, dilligence and the like are all factors necessary to do well with anything. But notice the question states mastering this craft. Frankly folks, and I mean no disrespect, there are very few who "master" the craft of luthery. There are many exceptional luthiers, tons of very good ones, but Masters? Hmmm...how does one determine that? When are you at a point where most of the questions are answered for you?
I have to go back to what is the basis of it all. Skill. Talent. Without it, all the humility, patience, persistance et al won't take you to that level. I don't know if I have it, and I don't know how many of you folks have "it" either. We may all have it. We might all be lacking it.
The other side of the coin is, that a person might have all the God-given skills necessary to become a "Master", and even though they build for years and years, never attain to that level for lack of those intangibles.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, they are all important, and necessary on the path to Mastering a craft. It's skill that has been mined, smelted, cast, and worked in the fires of the forge of life to create the ultimate sword.
It's also like a fine wine, that with the right grapes, care, temperature, and time, becomes the best of the best.

Without any of those essential ingredients, it misses the mark.



Don W38386.5539814815

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Good catch Don. Though It was not my intention when I posted the poll, when I read it after it was posted I noticed the implied question. I though I would wait to see if any one address the question as it was written...Brovo

After humility, marketing ability runs a close second.

From what I here you got that covered Bruce

A very understanding wife!!!
My better half cleaned the shop for me yesterday while I was at my day job and knowing that I was expecting visitors last evening. It was her day off from her 12-13 hour shifts as an LPN.
(Yes, I thanked here)
Nelson

Wow, a nurse, no one works harder and longer than a nurse or a school teacher (my wife). And Nelson, my wife helped me sheetrock my shop on her vacation.... (2 lucky guys)

[QUOTE=Don W] [quote]Poll Question: What attruibute do you feel is most important in mastering this craft.[/quote]

When are you at a point where most of the questions are answered for you?


[/QUOTE]

I don't think that I agree with this definition of Master. I don't think a master knows everything about a field or doesn't have anything to learn. I think of it more like a PhD. One who knows to a pretty high degree the state of the art and that the work they are doing is making original contributions to that art.

We don't, and shouldn't, have anything like a PhD in lutherie. But I can think of several luthiers who are practicing their art at the highest level. That doesn't mean that they don't have anything to learn. They may even consider themselves as just beginning. But I don't have any problem of thinking of them as masters.

The act of mastering and the state of being a master are not necessarily synonymous with each other. One is the attempt to achieve the other is the state of having achieved.

Violinmakers practice luthiery and they do have jury decisions regarding their work. It's been a while since I studied it, but the Violin Society of America definitely has some system of judging makers work.

Similarly, Tim McKnight is being juried by putting his work on the road. Feedback is good, especially from your peers.

Lastly, I hate to equate value to a handmade instrument to the quality of that instrument, because there is a lot that figures into it. But I once said and still believe that I'd know I was a master, small "m", when someone was willing to lay down "master cash" on the table for one of my instruments. And.... I might actually "be a master", before that happens.

So, a master luthier, is one who can handle, expertly, the tools, materials, and the procedures to make a quality hand made instrument, and he might even get paid what it's worth, but not necessarily.

Addendum: a Journeyman, define that one.... a journeyman may have a shop, have all the stuff, and look just like a master luthier, but probably is not fully competent. I'm a journeyman for a while longer, as I copy Martin, Taylor, Olson, Gibson, Collings, and Hoover.Dickey38386.8865277778

I'm not a builder, but as a client I can tell you the most important trait I look for in a builder is extensive experience, a history of closely examining and building examples from past masters *and*, most importantly, only then moving beyond to create their own distinct design...

Yer brain if'n ya use it

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

[QUOTE=John How] Yer brain if'n ya use it [/QUOTE]

Yup

Mike, I KNEW I should have left the continously learning part in there when I was writing that. I certainly didn't mean that a Master knows everything there is to know. But I think a Master has all the skill things nailed down, and also excels at design too. We could banter about the definition of "Master" when it is applied to things such as electricians and carpenters versus Artists. I think it's a whole different world and class of Mastery.

   I think that mastery of a craft such as luthery can and should be on a whole different level. I hope I don't sound snobbish here, but money has nothing to do with it. Most of the Great Masters of the art world died with little money in their bank accounts. Luthery can be such an artform. Not everyone who reaches the Master level in an artistic environment makes a lot of money at it. Conversely, I know some master electricians who get $60 and $75 an hour for what they do. Supply and demand has something to say about it too.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I think everyone would agree that Stradavarius was a master of luthiery. But there was a time that he was not. He progressed as Apprentice, Journeyman, and then Master violin maker, how?

He got better, he got correction by his teacher Amati, then he exceeded his teacher, due to great execution and wide fame. When he made quads of instruments for the French court, no one could keep it quiet.

Why is Stradivarius remembered and Amati forgotten, I'm not really sure, but part of it has to be his prolific production.

I was talking with a young violin maker in Montana, quite good at his young age. He excitedly emailed me once from his hotel room where his choir was on a trip. In the email he sent a video of him playing a Stradavarius in a museum. He was pumped.

Later he revealed that there was nothing especially spectacular about the Stradavaius, plain woods, just lackluster. I thought that was amazing. But you have to look at the entire spectrum of a makers life.

Stadavarius had his "golden years". He even had more famous instruments, some that made there way into hands of the greatest players ever to pull a bow.

Oh, back to the young violinmaker, his early efforts showed great promise. Within his first twenty instruments he had achieved impressive results and appeared to have totally mastered the art of making. I'm sure he hasn't, but he's getting there, like many of us.

Another violinmaker I met in Wolfe City Texas, the son of a trash man. He got started in instrument making because his dad brought home busted instruments pulled from the daily trash pickups. They had a dirt shop, and it was full of the cheapest little tools available.

At the time I visited him he had already sold a violin into Japan, and several others. He had a commission on a cello for $8,000. I sadly felt he was way in over his head, he didn't have all the proper tooling, but just as he'd succeeded with the violins, he may have pulled it off.

Him working there in his dirt floor shop made me appreciate my circumstance. The young son of a trash man, struggling to produce quality from such sparse resources. In his heart, there's a master.

I honestly think these titles are silliness. I suspect that most luthiers would be reluctant to EVER call themselves a "master luthier" regardless of how good they are.

Take Jimmy D'Aquisto for instance. As good as he was it appears that he was just starting to get the ideas and courage to spread his wings when he died. By all accounts I think everyone would consider him a master luthier, but I bet if you had the opportunity to ask him about it he would tell you that a lot of his best work / ideas were never accomplished. And from that perspective, how can you be a "master" if you feel that you can do better?

As I said in my original post. I honestly think that this is a clear situation where the "journey is the reward". You may never feel like you have mastered this craft - despite what the brochures say...   

No matter how many you make, no matter how good the rest of the world tells you you are, you are still going to see your mistakes (however slight) and struggle to improve your instruments.

I think this struggle (in whatever we pursue) is what makes humanity great, and our obsession with the quality of our instruments (and the willingness to openly share information) is driving this golden age of lutherie that we live in.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Ahh...now the conversation is getting really interesting. We're getting into the mind of how a Master of a craft thinks. Good thought Bruce and Brock...please keep the discourse going folks. The more we debate this, the more we push ourselves to think deeper about it, the more we'll be challenged and take time to reflect and pursue excellence.
A true Master of a craft always realizes there's more to be learned, and new levels to attain beyond his/her current condition. So yes, it's great skill, time, and a great mind-set. I don't normally like to play "devil's advocate" or push buttons to stir on debate, but this topic seemed worthy of looking as deeply into it as we can.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."