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I still haven't gotten around to doing this myself, but the shop-made hygrometers I saw in Sergei de Jonge's shop made a lot of sense to me. Take two long narrow strips of wood - one being something fairly stable like mahogany, the other being something that moves a lot, like willow. Exaggerate the difference by cutting the mahogany strip along the grain and the willow strip across the grain. Glue the two strips together with the mahogany on top. Mount it at one end to a backing board so that as it bends up and down, you can, if you want, calibrate it with marks on the board. Use a sling psychrometer or reliable hygrometer to calibrate it.

What really makes sense to me about this is that it will always be an accurate reflection of how the wood in the shop is being affected by the humidity, and that's what really matters. I plan to make a few of these and put them in different spots in my shop.   

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Oy.........

What a mess.

Y'all have confused yourselves plenty enough, so I won't any further, except tp state that with a wet bulb, DO NOT blow air on it using a fan. Doing so also blows air that has been heated and dried by the fan's motor and the effect of the blades cutting air. Instead, us a vaccum, or best yet, your dust collector, to PULL air across the wet bulb.

And again, comparing the weather network's readings to yours is silly, unless you live next dorr to where they take the actual readings.


Geeze, leave for a while, and folks that have yet to sell a guitar are having parts CNC'd, and the rest have completely confused themselves with a simple hygrometer.

<sigh>

Mario38898.3089351852

You're kidding me, right? Oh please don't make me embarrass myself so early in the morning, on a Friday. Argh. Grumpy is one thing Mario, and it's really "cute". But just so I'm clear, let me get this straight:

You mean...people who don't intend to sell guitars shouldn't have parts CNC'd, but people who don't intend to sell CDs, or perform professionally, SHOULD spend thousands dollars on a Proulx guitar? Bwahahahahahah...

Uh-oh, I'm in trouble. Let's see, off the top of my head:

I own a riding mower (silly me, wanting to limit the amount of TIME I spend on the mower)
I own a crotch rocket motorcycle (what a totally frivilous waste of that money, as I don't race).
I have a professional road-racing bike, that I hang laundry on.
Oh...wait, I have an SUV that I have never once off-roaded, in fact, my wife drives it.
Oh no...I own two guitars and I don't even PLAY guitar well!

And as for selling guitars, get this grumpster, I intend on building them, and GIVING them away. Yep, read that again Amrio, GIVING them away...to people who cannot afford a decent instrument, I hope. What does that make me? Stupid? Kind? Wasteful?

Bottom line: How people choose to spend their money in pursuit of this thing we all love is their business and not yours. Who are you do waltz in every now and then and be personally critical of what they chose to do? You want to criticize CNC as being unecessary, do it. You want to say people who don't intend on selling guitars shouldn't build them, do it. But get off your high horse as some personal judge of what people who view this as a hobby should, or shouldn't do regarding what, and from whom, they purchase. You're a good guitar builder, I suppose...but you ain't THAT good, junior. Not by a long shot.

What is the difference, aside from money, in buying a pre-made bridge from Stew-Mac (which is CNCd) and buying YOUR OWN pre-made bridge from a CNC mill?

Ah, I'll quit before I embarrass myself any further.    

Lance, you may publicly admonish me now. I deserve it, and make it a good one. But geez, his arrogance is irritating.

PS: And if an individual has NO OTHER mechanism to compare their hygrometer to, tell me again why it's silly. It's inaccurate yes, but silly?

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Hey Bill, take it easy on poor Mario...sometimes the cold air way up North there gets to his brain and makes him grumpier... and then he says stuff he knows he shouldn't say...
Right Mario?

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Welcome back Mario,

No confusion here, at the beginning of this thread I suggested that the salt calibration method was a way to discover exactly where on the dial a given hygrometer points to true 75%RH. That point then becomes an accurate datum to work from and that is all that is required no matter how much you do or don't spend.

I'll stand by that simply because I know it works and it works well. For our purpose, I just do not see the need for anything fancy. Quite frankly I do not understand all the fuss and you are correct to discredit local weather reports as RH can be affected by to many things making each garden, home or even room in a given area a micro-climate.

One of the main differences between the very best analogue hygos and the cheaper units is that the more expensive instruments can be easily re-calibrated. This is because it is understood by design that the actuating spring, hair, piece of wood, ants anteni...what ever, must be so fine in it's physical dimension in order to be sensitive enough to RH changes to give a reading, that it is unreasonable for anyone who understands it's function to expect it to remain accurate for anymore than one season at best.

I think maybe the silicone chip has overcome that issue a little...but I for one will continue to check with damps salt now and then just to check the checker.

As for having your bridges CNCed before you ever sell a guitar commercially, I don't see the problem...

If after a while you have strung together a few good instruments in a row and have now managed to created a design in a bridge that you are pleased with. One that you feel has encompassed the sonic values, function and aesthetic appeal that you have been trying to achieve. A design in which you have enough confidence to embrace as a standard that you will be prepared to stick with for a few builds, then why not.

Especially if a craftsman of the calibre of John Watkins is going to cut you a good deal on them and save you many hours trying to repeat your own work. Also, with CNC this important component can become a little less of a variable, a more stable element if you will upon which you might cling for a while in the ocean of uncertainties that is tonal control of an acoustic guitar.

I guess it is the little things all strung together as you say Mario. It is that attention to detail that will return as much as can be achieved. But in this environment, I think we all need to lessen the uncertainties where ever we can if we are ever to be convincing when arguing the accuracy of our beliefs or findings. I guess we really do need to cover all the basses....just ask Scott.      

Cheers

(edit...me typ'in while Bill post'in..guess you hit a nerve with a few of us Mario )

Kimlarkim38898.484525463

Um...yeah, that's what I meant to say.

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I just bought a new Acura TL .. most of it was CNC'd, but I dont really care, cause I dont have time to build one myself (at some point I do plan to sell it) ... but I do make my own bridges, no CNC !!!

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

[QUOTE=TonyKarol] I do make my own bridges, no CNC !!![/QUOTE]
That's the manly way!

Ah, I expected this... <bg>

Kim, I use the salt method also, to double check on the wet bulb. What I saw as creating confusion was someone saying it should read 100% instead of 75%. Then I saw a couple suggestions on blowing air across a wet bulb.

Just figured I'd correct those before someone gets messed up trying to reach 100% with one while the other reads too low.

As for the CNC thing, CNC is cool, for sure. What I don't understand is having parts made up for you when this is still at a hobby stage. Isn't making the parts a big part of the fun in making an instrument? I think it is. If you have parts pre-made, you're shorting yourself of much of the fun part, instead, rushing off to the completion. Factories have bridges made for them because their only goal is to get an instrument out the door. As an amateur, I would expect your goal is the fun of making the instrument, not the completion. Heck, I still find that I have this depressing feeling when I complete an instrument. It's the end of the road for that one, and is kind of sad, because I so enjoyed making it. The day that my only gaol is to get them out the door is the day I close up shop and return to a day job.

But that's just my view. It's a free world, and you are free to see it differently, same as I am free to do the same.

Our world is chock full of perfectly machined items; you would be surprised at how many people now appreciate a little variance and some signs of hand work. I've just returned from a week-long music camp where, including my 2, we counted 18 of my instruments present. A good handful of those were together at one point, with owners swapping and comparing one another's, and one thing they all noticed and thought was really cool was that no two were identical, and yes, they noticed the bridges were all slightly different, and indeed handmade. There are some guys who know what year(s) I signed my back's center strip 'upside down', and they think it's cool that my work varies a bit like that, compared to the computer-perfect work of factories. Old Martin and Gibson owners are fond of pointing to saw marks left on the wood inside their pre war, mega dollar guitars. Perfection is losing its lustre these days.

I admire you deeply for planning to give away your guitars! that you may indeed help someone discover the joy of music who otherwise may never have the chance is big. Well done! But don't short-change yourself the pleasure of woodworking for the drudgery of parts assembling; you'll tire of it sooner, and fewer derserving kids will get a guitar.

Comparing yuor hygrometer to the weather network's is silly because they can be way off from one another; they can easily be 20% or more from one another, if you simply live 10 feet lower in elevation than where the reading was taken, not to mention that the reading may have been taken hours before it was put up on the TV or web site.
Proper testing is so simple and accurate, and proper RH is so important to the survival of your work that cutting this corner can only be described as silly, right?

I speak strongly of issues like proper RH, and proper glues, etc..., because I learned the hard way early on, being self-taught before the days of the internet, and my goal is to help others to avoid the same pitfalls. 'scuse me for being blunt at times, but it's for your own good.Mario38898.6889583333

[QUOTE=Mario]As for the CNC thing, CNC is cool, for sure. What I don't understand is having parts made up for you when this is still at a hobby stage. Isn't making the parts a big part of the fun in making an instrument? I think it is.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I can understand the appeal of CNC'd parts, though, especially if they're of your own design. If you've struggled to create a part that finally looks professional, you don't want to mess it up the next time. The danger, though, is that you'll probably want to change it in the future, and you'll have to do a re-tool with your outsource.

[QUOTE=Mario]I've just returned from a week-long music camp where, including my 2, we counted 18 of my instruments present. A good handful of those were together at one point, with owners swapping and comparing one another's.[/QUOTE]
Now that must have been big fun!

[QUOTE=Mario]Comparing yuor hygrometer to the weather network's is silly because they can be way off from one another.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, how many times have you checked your thermometer against the "official" local temp, and found them at odds? Happens all the time.


[QUOTE=Mario] 'scuse me for being blunt at times, but it's for your own good.[/QUOTE]
Heh, heh! Thanks, dad!

Dont freak me out like that!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]



[/QUOTE]

Hey Hesh, that one way to allow your customers to avoid disappointment and the hassle associated with returns I suppose....hmm think I may have to put DO NOT PLAY on the label of my guitars.

(edit)Oh, and just thought I would add, you may want to sure up that wall if you plan on getting an more hyrometers

larkim38898.8018287037

Hesh,
Good one! You did have me going. I thought maybe I gave you bad advice. I did read those instructions when I got mine, and that is why I never did the salt test. Instead bought the Boveda calibration system instead. It is highly recommended to spend the $4 to test all of your hygrometers with the Boveda system. Good luck and enjoy!
Tracy

Hesh, i wasn't scared, there is too much beautiful zoot to see here, besides, it seems that you and the sofa have had a few encounters and get along really well!

Nobody adds spice to a thread better than Mario, you gotta love the grumpy fellow.

Mike
White Oak, Texas