Official Luthiers Forum!

Lots of interesting thoughts and possible scenario's to consider. I have three related thoughts posted as a musician who has great respect for Luthiers and own a custom electric bass from a local Luthier. While I would love to have the money and time to go to school and become a real Luthier as a career I don't see that as being a possibility unless I win a lotto.

Thought one;
While I have always loved music I did not really appreciate great guitar playing or solos until I began to play guitar at 18. I related to songs, emotions and sounds but I never appreciated good tone, technique and individual style until I began to play.

Perhaps some guitar players building guitars from kits etc will only more appreciate fine craftsmanship, tone and personality of a distinguished Luthier until after they have tried to build one or two. Some may be very sucessfull and continue to build while still appreciating the talents and experience of others.

Thought two;
A somewhat similiar scenario is in swing with the home recording revolution which is where I spend most of my hobby time.

On the good side of this revolution many talented, deserving, original and "non comercial" (i.e won't sell as many albums as Brittany Spears or Madona, etc) previously could not put out much recorded material without selling their creative rights and soul to the
record companies. With the internet and MP3's etc the music world is now wide open for musicians and bands to self promote, distribute and retain creative control.

The down side is that many of the current popular releases don't sound as good as what was done in the big studios not due to a lack of equipment but the lack of an experienced recording engineer. We could see a generation of music fans that don't know what a well recorded and mixed musical piece done in a good acoustic room sounds like. There is also a down side for many of the studios and engineers that find it harder to stay in business. While I am glad the major labels have lost some of their strangle hold on what gets released and I like to record at home I hate to see studios and recording engineers go out of business.

If I had the talent, songs, money and potential to release something that I really wanted to produce and sell I would go to a real studio and I would have a good idea of what I wanted to accomplish and know if the engineer was going to get us there. The stuff I do now I would not pay to go into a studio for anyway so for me home recording makes me a more saavy and appreciative customer but still a potential customer.

Last thought;
No matter how sound our logic appears "life is what happens when you are making plans" and there are two things you can always count on.
1. Trends swing like a penduluum as people are always looking for something new and 99% of the time that something new is something old repackaged and dusted off. If something goes out of style it will be back.
2. Life is full of curveballs you never expect. For example;

There was a time when many contemporary Christian artists/musicians were tired of being boxed into strictly playing churches, Christian AM radio and only being distributed in Christian bookstores.

Some Christian labels secured distribution deals with "secular" labels to expand their audience and market but the "secular" labels really did not know how to market this niche and they really were not that vested in making money off it so it seemed to fail. MTV and FM radio did not really bite either and most of the early distribution deals lost money and the products went to the clearance racks.

Fast forward five to ten years and the big "secular" labels got wind of how much money was being spent in contemporary Christian music and they went on an aquisition spree buying up most Christian labels.

Many Christians were alarmed that what they considered somewhat "sacred" businesses were now owned by labels that released some very "unsacred" (in their eyes) products and sincerely feared for the integrity and future of CCM (contemporary Christian music).

Guess what happened?

Jars of Clay all of a sudden started getting airplay on "secular" FM stations because a secular label with good distribution networks now owned the smaller Christian label that "Jars of Clay" were on. Many others followed nad of course Amy Grant found a way to cross over sucessfully before that but that is besides the point.

While in hind site it seems to make perfect 20/20 sense I would have never predicted in a million years that secular labels by buying smaller niche market Christian labels would result in many Christian artists getting the air play and distribution deals they had sought and failed to achieve through distribution partnershpips.

For me I will always respect and have great admiration for independant Luthier craftsmen even if I build a few myself but I am not expecting to be able to buy a $3,000 instrument anytime soon.

I fancy myself as having some of the curiosity and creativeness of a Leo Fender who mostly and humbly describled himself as a tinkerer. My next project after this hybrid ABG is going to be a small studio sized electric guitar tube amp but I would still by a professional hand built one if I could afford it.

I am honored to bask in the presence of so many fine craftsmen and to learn from you but don't worry as I for one never expect to sell or make any money off what I learn here. Then again life is full of curve balls!

Interesting thread Don et al.

I wonder if guitars will fall off in popularity as Al Carruth speculates (not challenging you Al not sure I agree or disagree).

If memory serves me right flattop sales took a dive in the 70's and forced builders like Larivee to start offering electrics which became all the craze. So what will the next trend in guitars be?

I've discovered that there is large number of medium to high income closet guitar players now in their prime earning years with growing collections of guitars that never leave their homes. This market is just now really discovering the "romance" Brock so aptly described. So my gut tells me that this large market alone has got has a pretty good run left for luthiers.

As someone else pointed out the Japanese market is a big one. At ASIA last summer I met a number of pros who said this market accounts for at least 1/2 of their sales.

The other thing you pros out their offer is a unique product for niche markets. Just look at some of the examples posted here -- Michael McBroom's 10 string classicals, Tony Karol's multi-scale armrest flattops, Kevin Gallagher's and John Kingslight's killer sounding and gorgeously appointed ... to name but a few.

Not to pick on Tony Karol -- but remember when I commissioned a parlor for my daughter -- I couldn't find a factory built guitar that has the size, sound and playability of the one he built.

Sorry for the long winded rambling -- bottom line I think the future of lutherie looks pretty good.   Will folks get rich from it -- probably not -- but a growing number of high end builders will earn a living income from it.     

I'm not a professional luthier (though I hope to be eventually), but with my new business this topic is a very significant one for me as well.

My thought is that the growing hobby luthier phenomenon helps keep handmade guitars in the spotlight, so to speak, and helps develop a greater appreciation among those who dabble in luthiery for those who excel at it. And finish carpentry is a huge business....even though pretty much anyone could do it if they had the tools, time, and patience, so why wouldn't guitarmaking be the same. Just because you theoretically COULD do it yourself doesn't mean that there's any good reason to.

I definitely don't predict the end of the golden age of luthiery anytime soon. I think factory guitars will continue to evolve and change as they have already done, but I don't believe production guitars will ever displace the luthier/master craftsman approach.

My one concern is just that the U.S. economy will almost certainly experience a significant downturn at some point in the future and as a purely luxury good, demand for high $ custom guitars will certainly drop. But those will be lean years for everybody, and I don't imagine luthiers will have it much worse than the factory worker who had been making whatever other good that people can no longer afford.

The influx of inexperienced builders may have some negative effects, namely people will become more skeptical of unseen/unheard custom guitars after being burnt once or twice. But in the end, cream rises to the top, and a ton of inferior builders commanding primo prices will only help justify the higher prices of the truly top shelf guys and gals.

Andrew

harmonist3438938.981412037

none of us really do it for the money now do we??

WOW, cool thread Don and everyone, thanks!

I do not know either if i will ever make a livin' out of lutherie but i will see after so many projects if my skills will still improve to the point where i won't be shy to go public with this crazy adventure depending on the quality that will be achived, in the meantime, lutherie will remain a hobby.

First and foremost, i love to build, anything, working with wood is really therapy in my case, i'd go nuts without working the wood, building and creating, out of plans or out of inspiration brings inner calm.

If i were to decide to build guitars, i'd probably try to sell 2-3 or 4 guitars a year while keeping my day job and keep it that way untill my customers list would increase enough to force me to quit my full time job and join in the fun of building guitars all day and all night as many of you do already!

Is there a future for custom guitars? Yes, i think so, i also believe that future customers will be more demanding as they will be more informed than we might think and expect to receive Royal treatment for the big bucks that they will spend for a custom made one.

Most of us, even those with more money than me will struggle to keep their place under the sun, TAS and WAS for the addicted woodworker is like a cake for the diabetic, anyone can over do it by spending more than they earn !

Serge

[QUOTE=jwsamuel] [QUOTE=Mike Mahar]I've asked a few and their first guess is about 3X what they payed for their Martin or Taylor. One of the guys I asked has a D45 and still thinks a custom guitar is out of his league.[/QUOTE]

I've had that discussion with members of one of the Martin guitar forums. They talk about ordering custom Martins that cost $6,000 to $9,000. I've asked them why they did not commission a luthier to build them exactly what they want and I've gotten one of two answers. They either say they have to have a Martin, or they say they can't afford a custom guitar from an independent.

Jim [/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think you have to discount these people. They might as well be buying cheeseburgers.... you are never going to get the guy who "HAS TO HAVE A MARTIN". There is no sense even thinking about this segment. I don't think that you will ever "out Martin Martin".

I know the vintage repro market is big, but that is a slightly different spin.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] When I was in college there was an old saying – if you want to open your own business and be sure to go belly up in short order open a music store……..

Why? Because, at least back then, the perception was that musicians often do not have any money……..

Today we do have the boomers with large closets, deep pockets, Rogain, Viagra, and delusions of reliving their youth as a rock and roll star…..

I agree that the perception out there with the crowd who will buy a Huss and Dalton, higher end Martin, Collings etc. is that hand built custom guitars are out of their price range…..

More than any time in history more and more of the pro musicians, the folks who other players may wish to emulate, are publicly performing with hand built custom guitars….

I agree with Anthony and others that the opportunity has never been greater for the independent luthier who offers a great guitar at a price that is supported by the value offered. Since 3-4K seems to be the magical, entry level number that works for all and folks are buying 3-4K guitars from the usual suspects what’s our problem?

Marketing!

I don’t so much mean the marketing that an independent luthier will do to promote their offerings. What I do mean is an overall industry awareness campaign where the message is clearly delivered to the masses that a hand made, custom guitar is available to any one AND at a fair price too.

Nearly every thing that I can think of has industry groups whose sole purpose in life is to drum up business for their industry members. Be it finding a dentist, drinking milk, contributing to charities, or promoting baseball, industry associations support their members by promoting the sale AND awareness of the offering of the members.

Who does this for independent luthiers? I know what some will answer here but I would respectfully counter with who, with an end user/customer facing is promoting awareness of the availability and value proposition of hand made custom guitars? IMVHO the answer currently is no one…….

Have you ever seen a full page ad in AG that says something like “Did you know that you can have one of the finest guitars in the world built just for you at a price that you can afford?” I sure haven’t seen any thing like this and until two years ago I would have thought that a hand built guitar is a $9K adventure too……

And as others point out with Martin, Taylor, and others creating and investing in the creation of more high-end offerings such as R. Taylor etc. these companies see an opportunity in the 4-6K price range as well.
I believe that the independent luthier would greatly benefit from the assistance of an organization chartered to promote awareness of the value proposition of hand made, custom guitars. What this organization must however do is present a face to the prospective guitar buyer and not just a face to it’s members…….
[/QUOTE]


I completly disagree with your presumption that the market is not aware of luthiers. Every AG has an article on luthiers and nearly every guitar enthusiast I meet can rattle off the names of several prominent (or local) luthiers. I think the market is just beginning to hit critical mass where the buying public knows it is an option.

I think we can thank the Internet for a lot of this. For better or worse, in a couple of evenings you can get a pretty good picture of what is out there, what to expect in terms of price, terms and delivery.

I do agree with you that independant luthiers face a marketing problem, but I think most have never considered what their "brand" is. I think that word has become synomous with "logo" but infact the brand is everything you are, everything you project, and every impression a prospect/customer gets from you. Everything from how you answer your phone, to the cases you choose, to the look of your web site etc.

I think that very few builders give this much thought, and even fewer really do the kind of soul searching and self evaluation that it takes to create a good brand. But the dividends it pays are remarkable.

It truly is the difference between good and great.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Here's a thread that drew my eye. As a disclaimer, I'm going to be in this business in certain capacities soon. There's a Fadal being built, there are CAD drawings, a business plan, and tool paths. Maybe hanging out with Kevin Ryan, trying to pick up some brilliance, and a month learning from Al Carruth to grab some more. If I'm real lucky, I might even get an audience with Bob himself (yes, that Bob, in El Cajon). I'm pretty excited about it. Of course, the road leading up to this is paved with research, books on business, and hours of talk with Those Who Know.

Now, with my junk on the line, which basket gets the eggs?

The market for 'mass customization' is big right now. Think the U2 iPod. People like the idea of something custom but fear the unknown. They want to say 'this is mine, and it's different' but they also want it to be 'normal'. That's why there will always be a longer line for the Fender custom shop than there will for all the independent luthiers combined. But the idea of wanting things to be more personal, the same thing that's selling factory 'custom' goods, has planted the seed that maybe one can go even further. I think that's why the custom vehicle market is booming now. Give people a few options and they wonder why they can't have all the options.

So, where is future of lutherie? I suspect there's always going to be a market for the hand builder. And it's always going to be a tough market to be in, but the cream will rise. There's a new market somewhere between the total hand builder and mass customization, I'll call it micromanufacturing or maybe customanufacturing. Take the tools of efficient manufacturing, put in the flexibility of the individual craftsman, and you end up with a custom product with production efficiency.

The tools have evolved to the point that if someone wants a unique body style, a one-off, it can be programmed/CNCed much faster than it could be built by hand by someone with the skills. All the important steps (set up, especially) can be done with the attention to detail one only finds in a small shop. The tools of big business are within the grasp of the little guy.

So what's special about this? Well, I can't get the machines Ford uses to make a car. I can't get the machines to make microchips or televisions or light bulbs. Not for less than a few million bucks. But, for the same cost as your average 'opening a cafe or corner store' business loan, I can be using the same machinery that Taylor, Gibson, et al are using. I've still got to make a good instrument, I've still got to convince people that it's great and make them want it, but at this point in history the big guys have nothing we can't have but their names.

(With the exception of that really cool robot PRS and Taylor use to buff their finishes...but, hey, I'll settle for an almost level playing field any day)

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

[QUOTE=jwsamuel] [QUOTE=Anthony Z]

Digital. Individual pickups for each string with a separate output for each pickup. Six signals get fed to a processor so the player can shape the sound however he or she wants.

Jim [/QUOTE]
This technology already exists...
....heaven forbid...

I like pushing air the old fashioned way...

BTW, great thread. I'll read it in more depth when I have time.

You bring good points here Hesh and i've been giving some thoughts about that as well. I believe that in order to survive in the custom made market some little builder wannabe like me would have to associate with either one or more builders to have financial back up, resources put together etc. At the salary i'm making now, i can only dream of building full time in between 5-10 years from now.

I know there is a group of well known builders out there who share the expenses for publicity for all their separate logos under one house name but can't remember their name, when i first saw this i thought well, what a great way to have the marketing tools working for you. We all dream of having that small one-man shop and nobody to answer to but what if small partnership deals were to be made, i can conceive that between 2 wannabes who share the expenses of everything.

Being passionate about guitars is one thing, selling them is another and i feel i have so much to learn there also, i wouldn't mind associating with partners to have a small company and go widely public. Is that a crazy thought ? After reading this great thread, maybe some of you will agree that there is room for associations like these especially when you consider making $15/hour paying everything on your own.

Very interesting thread - thanks to all for your insights. I find myself making comparisons to the collision repair businesses I work with (my day job focus).

Much different in some aspects and much the same in others. It used to be that a bodyman did body work and then thought I know how to do body work therefore I know I can run a business that does body work. I have watched some build businesses that do $20mm - $100mm in annual sales while many others have and continue today to close their doors.

Is it possible that the more hand build becomes recognized the more the demand will rise?

Is it possible that a boomer buys a $300 guitar from Guitar Center and realizes how much fun it is to play - even poorly so his/her next buy is a high end, or a custom?

Is there a rise in the number of people playing guitar? I dont know but something is driving the demand for more and more guitars!!

Do artists like Springstein who start to wane from rock to folk (his new Pete Seiger tribute CD - excellent)create demand among those electric players who are inspired to explore the acoustic world more seriously?

Does the Chinese influence drive down the cost of manufactured guitars increasing the interest in guitar playing and demand for all guitars from low end to high end and hand made?

Many businesses today, from Fortune 500 companies to the one person business selling goods on eBay are faced with more, tougher(and in some cases, global) competition, shrinking demand and increasing costs of doing business. Within any change there are challenges and some turn them to opportunity.

I think that it is inevitible that hand built Luthiers will need to re-consider at least some of the building process.

Does it really make a difference if you buy a peice of pearl that is pre-cut on a CNC?

Does it make a difference if you buy fingerboards slotted and ready to assemble?

Does it make a difference to buy a neck made on CNC even if it is made to where most of the work is done to your custom needs and then you finish it with a unique touch.

Is the effeciency of the hand buider where it needs to be without sacrifice to the quality, tone and "romance".

I may be totally out of line here, and maybe simply ignorant because I have not ventured into this as a business but more as a hobby to force myself from having to think about this kind of stuff for my real job.

But..... it seems to me, from a quality/tone and real differentiation from hand built to manufactured is primarily the box. The bracing, carving, thicknessing, voicing, binding is where most of the differentiation comes from (in my humble and limited experience opinion). Of course, then the assembly, setup and finish (contributing to the sound, and the romance).

While I have no intention of ever building for a living I have thought briefly from time to time about the challenges that those of you face who do build as a profession.

When I browse the back of Acoustic Guitar and see all the adds for hand built I find myself wondering what is different?

What is the difference between a Manzur, and a pick any other one of the adds???

They are both made by hand, They both look awesome and both sound like guitars. One has built perhaps hundreds, the other has built maybe fewer. One might sell for $8,000 and the other for $3,000. Why should I pay one price over the other?

Lots of questions and no answers but I guess what I am trying to say in summary are two things:

1. Find the opportunity that is present among the challenges.

I have seen at least a few businesses grow from the opportunity that were not around even a few short years ago.

People have turned the increased interest in building to tone wood businesses, eBay businesses where they sell jigs, materials and more.

I have talked to several pro builders over the past few years who are now teaching wannabe builders and getting paid good money for training. If you could put 10 bodies in a room for even 3 days at $600 each, that's $6,000. And one and on and on. If you schedule one of these courses count me in. I dont have a full week or weeks to devote but I could devote a baby boomer, wanna be builder for a long weekend. WHat about those other boomer wannbes like me. Would they give up a weekend for a small fee? I say Heck Yeah!!

2. I agree with Brock on what you are selling is not limited to the quality, tonewoods used, craftsmanship, but more so the romance!!!

The opportunity to have a one off that no one else will ever have - or the chance to be engaged in the process of selecting the wood, the style, the size of the neck and on and on and on.

I have not seen any advertisement in the Acoustic rags that promote these areas of differentiation.

They all promote a "Guitar" and from the advertisements I see, there is nothing that sells the romance or any other differentiation, other than the brand which people hope will become recognized.

Does this work??? I have been playing (a hack really) for over 30 years. I have been in love with the guitar since day one, and I never heard of any of the builders that I know of today until I started this hobby. I did know who Martin and Taylor and Gibson were. So I think you need to consider what it is you are selling and then market to that differentiation.

Sorry for the ramblingn and lots of questions with no answers - just hope some of this will stir some additional thoughts for you.

BTW - If you like to read, there is a great book that has been out for many years called "Positioning" by Trout and Reis. It focuses on how to position your product with lots of great examples that I think could serve as thought starters for any business or profession.

[QUOTE=Bob Garrish] Here's a thread that drew my eye. As a disclaimer, I'm going to be in this business in certain capacities soon. There's a Fadal being built, there are CAD drawings, a business plan, and tool paths. Maybe hanging out with Kevin Ryan, trying to pick up some brilliance, and a month learning from Al Carruth to grab some more. If I'm real lucky, I might even get an audience with Bob himself (yes, that Bob, in El Cajon). I'm pretty excited about it. Of course, the road leading up to this is paved with research, books on business, and hours of talk with Those Who Know.

Now, with my junk on the line, which basket gets the eggs?

The market for 'mass customization' is big right now. Think the U2 iPod. People like the idea of something custom but fear the unknown. They want to say 'this is mine, and it's different' but they also want it to be 'normal'. That's why there will always be a longer line for the Fender custom shop than there will for all the independent luthiers combined. But the idea of wanting things to be more personal, the same thing that's selling factory 'custom' goods, has planted the seed that maybe one can go even further. I think that's why the custom vehicle market is booming now. Give people a few options and they wonder why they can't have all the options.

So, where is future of lutherie? I suspect there's always going to be a market for the hand builder. And it's always going to be a tough market to be in, but the cream will rise. There's a new market somewhere between the total hand builder and mass customization, I'll call it micromanufacturing or maybe customanufacturing. Take the tools of efficient manufacturing, put in the flexibility of the individual craftsman, and you end up with a custom product with production efficiency.

The tools have evolved to the point that if someone wants a unique body style, a one-off, it can be programmed/CNCed much faster than it could be built by hand by someone with the skills. All the important steps (set up, especially) can be done with the attention to detail one only finds in a small shop. The tools of big business are within the grasp of the little guy.

So what's special about this? Well, I can't get the machines Ford uses to make a car. I can't get the machines to make microchips or televisions or light bulbs. Not for less than a few million bucks. But, for the same cost as your average 'opening a cafe or corner store' business loan, I can be using the same machinery that Taylor, Gibson, et al are using. I've still got to make a good instrument, I've still got to convince people that it's great and make them want it, but at this point in history the big guys have nothing we can't have but their names.

(With the exception of that really cool robot PRS and Taylor use to buff their finishes...but, hey, I'll settle for an almost level playing field any day)[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. I think you are absolutely right, these markets have virtually no overlap.

Honestly I think if you added every custom (hand) built guitar by every independant luthier together, this represents nothing more than a "rounding error" to the big production firms. However if your annual output is 10 guitars and you can sell every one of them you think "hey, I am doing pretty good". Success is dependant on scale.

Good luck. It sounds like an interesting venture.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Brock my presumption was/is not that the market is not aware of luthiers....... my experience is that the market is not aware that luthiers and their offerings are with in reach of any one willing to spend $3K for a guitar.

Over and over individuals have indicated this in the thread before me that the perception is that a hand built, custom guitar will cost far more.

Additionally, even though the 1" x 2" ads exist in the bowels of AG I don't see anyone beating a path to the advertising luthiers doors in probably the majority of cases.

I agree with you that brand is very important as is the marketing of the individual luthiers wares but before brand comes demand and creating same.

My point is, and it seems to be missed here, that I don't see any strategic marketing to increase awareness that hand built guitars are available and at attractive price points. This strategic marketing can't be done by an individual luthier it has to be done by an industry association/trade group and again targeted at prospective custom guitar buyers.

Although developing brand and creating the "romance" associated with said brand is important - if the concept that a hand built, custom guitar is an attractive purchase option is not widely understood by the by the guitar buying public no one will have the opportunity to experience the romance.......

My point is much more fundamental - where are the industry associations (for luthiers) who drive demand (customers) to contact the independent luthiers (many of us) and buy a guitar??? Instead I see the industry associations that market services to us but not goods and services for us......
[/QUOTE]

I am not trying to be argumentitive. (I see it as debating a point more than disagreeing with you).

I understand your point about having a trade group promoting the interests of luthiers. I think the idea is a fine one, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary.

The AG reference I made was in relation to the article they run every month, not the advertising.

I think independant luthiers can do great marketing, even on a shoestring budget. I think PR is the first place I would put my energies. We have a sexy story that the media will like to grab on to and my suspicion is it will be very easy to place stories. You just have to be clever and put a "spin" on your story that makes it about more than ** you **. Sure it would be great to be in AG and the other industry mags, but there are tons of opportunities for premium coverage.

With respect to demand... we sell a luxury good. We create our own demand. I think that the market cannot perceive the need until they know the product (or the opportunity of the product) exists.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=jwsamuel]
1. The 1" x 2" ads in AG are a waste of money. They do not attract attention and the only people who read them are the luthiers who placed them and other luthiers looking to see who is advertising. The only readers who go through those ads are those who are already sold on the idea of commissioning a guitar and who are looking for a name. The small ads do nothing to attract the attention of the casual reader.[/QUOTE]

Uhhhh.... I agree with you IF your presumption is these ads drive sales. If that is your presumption. Yes, they are "worthless". No ad will ever be a salesman for you.

However, if all you are looking for is warming the world up on your name, then I think they do an ok job of that. They are an expensive way to do it. But I think it is somewhat effective.

[QUOTE=jwsamuel]

2. As to what comes first, the brand or the demand, I would argue that a good, well-position brand name creates demand. There already is demand for guitars. The key for luthiers is to get people to buy their guitars. That's where brand comes in.

[/quote]

Yep.

[QUOTE=jwsamuel]

Most buyers don't care if a guitar is hand built or not. They go by the brand and what it stands for. There are plenty of people who think that Martins are hand built. James Olson did not attain the position he has today by offering hand built guitars. His association with James Taylor put him where he is today. Whether he planned it that way and whether he likes it or not, James Olson's brand image is the guitar that James Taylor plays.

[/quote]

Some players don't care if they are hand built or not, but others do. I think you are pointing out that there are multiple facets that you can approach the market.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Colin S] [QUOTE=WarrenG]
That guy should move to Europe; He'd fit right in with the whole secretive philosophy.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you'd like to expand on that remark? Or withdraw it.

Colin[/QUOTE]

Sure Colin, this is the third time I'm having to write this (due to internal server errors) so I'll be more succinct.

I was taking a shot at the classical guitar building community - especially those in the Spanish tradition. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to apprentice with or even talk to these makers about their instruments. They seem to keep their infinite wisdom in the family. Whatever.

This is a very different philosophy than what members of A.S.I.A. subscribe to. The sharing of knowledge and innovation is encouraged. It may be simply a conflict between tradition and progression. Or maybe it's a nylon vs. steel-string thing?

I'm just surprised that a modern builder feels food is being taken off their table because someone else is willing to share their knowledge and help new builders avoid the mistakes they've learned the hard way.   WarrenG38939.496712963

[QUOTE=WarrenG]
I was taking a shot at the classical guitar building community - especially those in the Spanish tradition. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to apprentice with or even talk to these makers about their instruments. They seem to keep their infinite wisdom in the family. [/QUOTE]

Several months ago, I was contacted by a guy from Spain who wanted to build a 10-string classical. He told me that he was unable to learn anything about 10-string construction from the Spanish luthiers he visited, and that they were quite secretive about their building techniques.

I have openly shared my adventures in 10-string building from the very beginning (I've even given lectures on the subject), so I helped the guy out as best I could. I pointed out to him that I learned about building 10-strings by examining one instrument (my old Ramirez) to arrive at a basic set of dimensions, and began building, learning along the way from the problems I encountered. This was enough for him to get started. He'd already been building guitars for a while, so it wasn't like he was starting at the beginning. The result was a 10-string that he is very happy with.

I was happy to help out. I guess it comes from my experiences as a teacher. Most any teacher will tell you that, in the teacher-student relationship, it is usually the teacher who learns the most. So to me, sharing what I know actually expands my knowledge on the subject, and as a result, everybody benefits.

And here at the OLF, it can be argued quite convincingly, I believe, that we are all both teachers and students, sharing our knowledge, and in the process of this exchange, we all benefit. This thread is just one more great example of the positive nature of the free exchange of information.

Best,

Michael
Michael McBroom38939.5619907407

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Live to Play, Play to Live

[QUOTE=Sprockett] [QUOTE=Brock Poling] [QUOTE=WarrenG] Some people are delusional.
There is not enough business to go around - as some have alluded to the loss of the baby boomers and another paradigm shift in personal priorities. [/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but that is absolutely positively not true.

If you are only making 6, 12, 20 guitars a year the loss of the baby boomers is not going to impact your market. Not if you are building a good product and doing even a remotely average job of marketing.

[/QUOTE]

I very much agree with Brock on this one, there are tons of working musicians out there who don't fall into the baby boomer category. They are the hardest to build for but the most satsifying when you get it right, they aren't going anywhere and a builder who can do repairs and setups could end up in a good situation with enough work to keep them busy for a long time. The question is do you want to build or do repairs or balance both??

-Paul-[/QUOTE]

The question I have for you guys is this: how many luthiers do you think there are? If the CBC is correct (I heard this second-hand BTW) the answer is 15 000. If they are even half right, folks building 6, 12, 20 instruments a years are not insignificant especially at their price point.

I'm not a professional luthier and don't plan to be. I started to build because I play and love woodwork. I tend to agree with Scooter's pendulum mentioned above. Many, many, if not most, of the "luthiers" out there today will not be there tomorrow. We're riding a wave and it will go back down. Those who can produce the product will emerge stronger. Most will disappear. There will always be a market for a great handmade instrument, but it will ebb and flow just like everything else.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......