Official Luthiers Forum!

The question I have for you guys is this: how many luthiers do you think there are? If the CBC is correct (I heard this second-hand BTW) the answer is 15 000.

My guess is that this includes repair people too. Factoring out the electric builders (different market), and segment off the classical builders from the SS guys I doubt that you would end up with a fraction of that number actually producing product for sale.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
As I was writing this post and as a result of having concluded that my luthier pals would greatly benefit from an industry action group who's sole mission in life was to promote awareness of hand built guitars being a great alternative to high-end factory guitars something occurred to me........

Why would we not consider attracting prospective hand built guitar buyers to become members of the OLF and freely interact directly with the artisans who will fulfill their dreams for that very special guitar?
[/QUOTE]

You mean the luthiers Showcase.

_________________
Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
Why would we not consider attracting prospective hand built guitar buyers to become members of the OLF and freely interact directly with the artisans who will fulfill their dreams for that very special guitar?
[/QUOTE]

Hesh,

There are already other forums out there that do something like this. But I'm thinking that there's no reason why Lance and Brock couldn't set up another forum area for this sort of interchange if demand warrants it.    Not making a suggestion, just a comment.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

The LS is really not so much of an organization that will bear the standard for hand builders everywhere as much as it is a marketing consortium.

This project really hit a wall. We were almost done and my coder flaked out and we have been stuck in the mud ever since.

Our plan is to get it to the finish line and launch it. I am sure it will be a big hit with both luthiers and players, but we are suffering a few issues with it right now.

Our plan is to get this back on the rails soon.



HOWEVER... I am quite certain that we DO NOT want players mucking around in the OLF. Nobody would ever feel comfortable asking advice, or for help.

Just look how different luthiers behave on the player forums. You have to be more conscience of what you say publically. Customers don't want to think you are unsure of yourself, or are experimenting on thier nickle.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]


HOWEVER... I am quite certain that we DO NOT want players mucking around in the OLF. Nobody would ever feel comfortable asking advice, or for help.

Just look how different luthiers behave on the player forums. You have to be more conscience of what you say publically. Customers don't want to think you are unsure of yourself, or are experimenting on thier nickle.

[/QUOTE]

So true! AND, I am afraid if customers ever were to make their requests know here, go "shopping" as it were, the accustomed civility would be strained as competition (for a new customer) raised its ugly head. And however we may like each other, you know it would happen.
I say leave marketing out of this friendly equation.

There's .02 for you.

Steve

Ahh, typed this while you typed your last post, Hesh.

(Are you getting any work done? )

Steve Kinnaird38939.6114351852

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
My guess is that this includes repair people too. Factoring out the electric builders (different market), and segment off the classical builders from the SS guys I doubt that you would end up with a fraction of that number actually producing product for sale.
[/QUOTE]

I would think so too, but I'd like to confirm the scope with the source before dismissing it.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]...Every day we gain new members and Michael's thread asking lurkers to expose themselves...[/QUOTE]

SO glad we don't have webcam capabilities on this site...


This really is a much more interesting thread than the simple-minded ramblings it started with. Who was that anyway?
I really do have to wonder if maybe marketing and branding are the key missing elements in the industry. If indeed the perception is that having a custom-made instrument is 2 to 3 times the cost of what it really can be, then that's a misconception that affects all of us trying to make money at it. What we really could use, as Hesh points out, is a way to pool our resources in an effort to educate the potential market.
I'm seriously debating creating a questionaire and planting myself outside a Guitar Center to see what perceptions are out there, and what kind of willingness there may be to spend X dollars on a custom-made instrument, acoustic or otherwise.
Maybe we could take a lot of what we've discussed here and pool our brains to come up with such a questionaire that we could all use to do local market research?
Seems like a wise move to me...
...especially if one can find a subtle way of conveying the "possibilities" that such an endeavor can bring to the local or regional market. Not to mention the global market.

Don Williams38939.6428356481

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
Brock you and Lance have done such a great job in making the OLF a very successful and "happening" cyber home for us that it begs the question - why not a completely new and separate forum just for players and luthiers to interact and do business?

Even the OLF has competition with other forums but look at us grow. Every day we gain new members and Michael's thread asking lurkers to expose themselves, well you know what I meant....., has been an extraordinary success.

If you started a new and separate forum, with a different URL from the OLF and no links to same, supported it with a spiff from any referral that is initiated as a result of the forum and pans out I think that this too could be a smashing success.

[...snip...]


[/QUOTE]


We have actually talked about that. I think there is some merit to the idea. Certainly we have no complaints with Dave's or Mike's site (I actually lurk the APM quite frequently). However, if we do something aimed at players I think we would want to find a differentiation. I am not sure what that is, but the idea is batting around....

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Don Williams] [QUOTE=Hesh1956]...Every day we gain new members and Michael's thread asking lurkers to expose themselves...[/QUOTE]

SO glad we don't have webcam capabilities on this site...


This really is a much more interesting thread than the simple-minded ramblings it started with. Who was that anyway?
I really do have to wonder if maybe marketing and branding are the key missing elements in the industry. If indeed the perception is that having a custom-made instrument is 2 to 3 times the cost of what it really can be, then that's a misconception that affects all of us trying to make money at it. What we really could use, as Hesh points out, is a way to pool our resources in an effort to educate the potential market.
I'm seriously debating creating a questionaire and planting myself outside a Guitar Center to see what perceptions are out there, and what kind of willingness there may be to spend X dollars on a custom-made instrument, acoustic or otherwise.
Maybe we could take a lot of what we've discussed here and pool our brains to come up with such a questionaire that we could all use to do local market research?
Seems like a wise move to me...
...especially if one can find a subtle way of conveying the "possibilities" that such an endeavor can bring to the local or regional market. Not to mention the global market.

[/QUOTE]


I think an industry survey would be a cool thing to do, however, I don't think you could use a straw poll outside GC as a good snapshot of the industry.

Every player I know who can pick a couple of tunes hates that place... (but it is always seems packed.... hmmmmm). I think we would have to segment off a more qualified sample audience.

BUT... I think that if we tried to do something like this (in a serious and scientific way) as a group we could publish the findings and get some exposure for our community. And it would be a contribution we could make to the luthier world.

I do like this idea.

I really enjoy where this thread is going....   

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I KNEW you'd like it Brock...your IM's were the inspiration for the thought.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

On the 15,000 luthiers, I would have to agree with Brock's points on this. In defining the various categories of what a "Luthier" is even using the OLF as an example. We have many lurkers with no builds, we have many first time kit builders, many 1-2 guitar hobbyists, some hobbyist that do more per year, some early stage guys getting into the business, and very few offering guitars for sale or in the business proper. The actual number of Luthiers in the business would probably be suprising as to how few there really are, in the hundreds I would imagine not the thousands.

I have enjoyed the discussion between Brock and Hesh, both make some very good points.

I want to share an example

I am in the "luxury sales" business for a living and sell nothing other than my creative design ability in water features and landscape designs. The great question in all business is how do I grow profitably and compete in this market. Understand that this was my hobby, I was a Bank executive in my previous life. There is no shortage of Landscape Architects, Designers or Contractors in every market.

I built my reputation on professionalism, quality, appearance and functionality of the features that I designed and oversaw building. As time progressed and more examples were spread out locally and in many states, "my brand" or "signature" began to take shape.

Interesting Notes

I have never had a web site, have never had a print ad or used any traditional advertising methods, don't have a catchy name (Mike Spencer - pretty plain), and don't have a logo and print my own buisness cards. I do donate alot of my time speaking at Landscape Conventions, Home and Garden Shows, Master Gardeners, and Garden Clubs about water features and garden design, but all this happened after the fact. This gives me added exposure and continues to build this perception of "expert" or the best in the industry mentality with potential customers. In this industry I am not a "price" seller at all anymore. I am in bidding situations from time to time and am rarely the low bidder but still seem to get a majority of what I bid due to creative differences.

Why?

Because folks want to do business with who they feel will delivery the best end product and cost actually becomes secondary. It did not start out this way, it has just ended up becoming this way.   

So to stop rambling, ultimately your work, end product craftsmanship, creative design and communications has to be there. Whether it is in Landscape Design or Building Guitars it will create demand.

Mike
White Oak, Texas

to be continued when the boss isn't looking........


Don A38939.6814814815

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] just debating...with a bunch of really bright guys. [/QUOTE]
Well, I'm about to change that demographic.

Regarding the proliferation of first-time kit/scratch builders, I think that many of them will discover how difficult it is to make a good guitar, and will then be more willing to commission an instrument. Many others will simply stop after one. I see no downside, and, perhaps, some benefit from all this interest.

I've spent the last 25 years talking to, observing and reading about individual builders, and I've learned (unscientifically, of course) what it takes to make a living by building guitars: skill and perseverence.

Skill: You must learn your craft, and you must learn how to make your instruments appealing--visually, tonally and tactilly. You must offer top quality, you must do it efficiently, and it's not going to happen in your first 20 guitars. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO EVERY RULE! Danny Ferrington comes to mind. Some people just get lucky.

Perseverence: This is just as important as skill, if you want to make a living building guitars! You may have heard the well-established "rule of thumb" that any new small business must expect to loose money for its first three years. How many small businesses have you seen close after only one or two years? They didn't believe the rule.

Unfortunately, in my observation, the "rule" for luthiers is different. It takes ten years. That's ten years of building, promoting and selling your instruments for less than a living wage. Someone who's been building for five years and is selling his guitars for $2K (or less) is not necessarily underpricing his product. If you expect to make a living (i.e. make house and car payments, buy clothes and eat) at guitarbuilding in under ten years, you'll likely be disappointed, discouraged, and you'll quit too soon. Again, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE; but, from what I've seen, the above holds true generally.


Quality and perseverence beget reputation, which increases demand.

If you want to make a REALLY good living making guitars (i.e. send your kids to college), luck has to enter the picture. By luck, I really mean timing. If you're making just the right niche instrument at just the right time, and can meet demand, you're golden. Sometimes a niche can be created, but that'll take a different set of skills in marketing and demographics.

I really love this thread!

Hesh and Brock's points are all good points, i'd hate to see competion devoure us here but i feel that we do have something to achieve in making our craft reknown. I see ourselves putting our resources and efforts together, the poll that was suggested is a great idea but there is so much more to do that will need good will from everyone, as a very happy suscriber here, i'm willing to do my share of what's needed to be done to get the custom made guitar better known.

Again, i see partnerships, small alliances from small groups, all belonging to the OLF which would act as support for them all, it would all depend on everyone's will to commit to perseverence and quality as my bud Carlton mentionned, not forgetting creativity and communications as my other bud Mike said also, who will start the Ball?

This is a really great thread!

I wonder how many of the almost 900 members here are exclusively luthiers? No day job. Just a few I would imagine. I think they are very safe in their profession, as the other 99% of us are no threat. We build because we are driven to build, at least I am. But I don't have the time, energy, knowledge, or desire to try and jump in the game with the professionals. And, I think it is that way for most folks.

I have given away each guitar I have built. Yes, I would like to sell one someday, but that is not my objective. I will gladly build dozens of guitars and give them all away, as long as I am fortunate enough to have health and finances that will allow me to do so. Building is therapy, and a comfort when the world is overwhelming me.

Jeff

me too.

I really think that a "semi-professional" class will rise. Those who are as serious as any full time builder but not having the production capacity of a full timer.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

It takes a good one to recognize another!

The market is clearly there!!! I started building because I wanted to see if
I could do it. That was it. No business plan. No business intentions!!!!
No clue if I could even build one.

A collegue doubted me. (Typical surgeon, but a player for over 50 years)
He really like my first build and others at work heard him play it. It lead
to a lot of interest and my first commission. I kept bring guitars in for
him to play and it has lead to more and more interest and orders.    
Eventually that surgeon ordered one. That was that first Mac Ebony guitar
I built. I am fortunate to work with people that can afford a custom
guitar. I also don't charge very much for my guitars. To me, the concept
of someone willing to pay several thousands of dollars for me to make
them a guitar is mindboggling. I am still a rookie from a practical
standpoint.   I have given away 3 guitars, because to me it is still a hobby.

Word of mouth and getting people to sit down and play your instruments
is key. Today I was at Guitar Center testing a pickup on one of my
guitars. (I don't own an amp) I had 6 salesman come over just to play my
guitar. A bunch of customers also played it. They loved the guitar and
who knows, it may lead to some commissions. I don't think Guitar Center
wants luthiers trying to sell guitars in there stores though. I wasn't my
intention. Most people felt my guitar looked nicer than the Martins,
Taylors and Gibsons on the wall and sounded as good or better. I am
sure my guitars are not even close to the quality of some your guitars!!!!

With the quality of Zoot we get from our sponsors, we can build some
very fine guitars. My very limited experience in this business has taught
me that people love the concept of guitars built personally for them!!!!
When they can pick out the wood, inlays etc, they are in hog heaven!!!azimmer138940.0204050926

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

An excellent thread that every aspiring or current pro should read!

Personally, I have no desire to ever try to make the leap into professional lutherie. But if I did, one thing I would do would be to offer up something other than yet another awesome Martin clone.

From a marketing perspective, I would think in terms of being bold, daring, innovative, DIFFERENT. If one has the engineering skills to provide that difference on an engineering level, then that is an aspect that could be promoted. But, even for those whose skills do not include engineering, you might make innovative design the feature that makes you stand out in a crowd.

Case in point: Jeff Babicz. I have not played nor heard one of Jeff's guitars. Let's say for the sake of argument that the engineering innovations cannot be heard by a blindfolded player. (I'm not saying that is really true.) Now, take one flattop steelstring guitar from 20 of the world's top luthier's, and hang them all on a showroom wall with one of Jeff's. I'd be willing to bet that Jeff's guitar will see more auditioning time by serious players/buyers than many of the others. Sure, some players will be enamoured by the "O" on the Olson (or whichever manufacturer they are pre-conditioned to believe is "great"), and a few will shy away from any guitar that is a radical departure from CF Martin's 1800's designs. But I believe that the vast majority of players will be intrigued by the guitar that stands out from the crowd.

I'm certainly not suggesting that most builders should attempt to build instruments as innovative (and as different from Martin clones) as say, Fred Carlson's creations, but I do think that it will become increasingly difficult to sell great Martin clones against high-end Martins themselves, other high-end production/factory Martin clones, and maybe the 2nd or 3rd wave of new Chinese Martin clones that will come in and take a lot more than the low end of the market.

$0.02

Dennis Leahy

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Great post Dennis, thanks!

That is exactly how i would approach an endeavour in making a living with lutherie, i feel i'd have more chances on the creative side than i'd have if i were to try and emulate what most do and are so good at, i'll try to come up with my own instrument design once i feel i have controlled some more aspects and steps of builds, being yourself is the key!