Official Luthiers Forum!

Bran from over at the forum with the "s" just posted this link. Now if we just had a bit of Lutzii and some Redwood in the mix this clip would be really usefully.

T J Thompson tap'in wood

Cheers

Kim

yeah, funny that, it's doing the rounds on all the guitar forums..

What surprises me is how dull the Sitka sounds.....

Kim,

Very interesting clip. The trouble is that recording something like this is very difficult. A lot of the sound goes through the fingertips as you tap and feel the response. Also if that was the "Holy Grail" old Martin sound then I'm wondering what all the fuss is about . I bet it sounds totally different live.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Wow, the Martin sounded great to my ears. But then I love the old Martin sound....

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Well, the biggest problem with this whole thing is how the guy presented himself. And in doing so, totally misrepresented the whole luthier community.

Now, come on. This dude is the first in history to be tapping on and listening to the tone of the wood?? And everybody else is just interested in building shiney guitars?? I find this very insulting to all of us. Paints a pretty bad picture of the current state of the craft to the public. I think NPR needs to hear a few comments on what is really happening.

Grant

Grant...I felt that same insult when I first heard the interview. This was self-promotion at its worst.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Grant,

It think that's a bit harsh. Given the other "sound clips" they refer to the programme seems to be one that is pitched at a pretty general audience, not handbuilt guitar affectionados. Many think of guitars as being made by Martin, Taylor, Gibson and even Esteban. Hand voicing each top there is not a common occurrence.

I don't know T. J. but his reputation goes ahead of him and from what I've heard humility is one of his big assets. Wasn't it him who said "If you want to build a better guitar, be a better person" or maybe that was Wayne Henderson - whatever.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] Grant...I felt that same insult when I first heard the interview. This was self-promotion at its worst.[/QUOTE]

The self promotion aspect of this is not what bothered me. We can all stand a bit of that from time to time

What bothers me is his statement suggesting that nobody else "in the entire history" of guitar making has tapped on wood and listened to it. Now, THAT is just pure BS, and to make this kind of statement on a public venue such as NPR is unacceptable. That is simply an outright false statement, that totally misrepresents the craft to the public. He could have easily put this in a more positive way which would have reflected more correctly on the craft as a whole.

Dave, I do not feel that I am being too harsh, and I do not care what his reputation may or may not be. The comment he made puts him on my short list of real jerks.

And while the "biggies" may not hand voice every guitar, to suggest that they have never payed attention to the tap tone of the woods they use is absurd. IMHO

GrantGrant Goltz39074.4834143519

We should consider that the final broadcast might bear little resemblance to
the original interview.

My family and I were the subject of a news piece awhile ago. The piece ran
for about a minute, but they spent about a half an hour talking to us and
filming. The producer put so much of his own spin on it that it ended up
with whole different focus. They had cherry-picked all the content and
edited it to suit the whims of the producer. It was just a newsy item,
nothing controversial, but I wasn not pleased. I wonder what TJ thinks of the
way the piece was presented.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

[QUOTE=Grant Goltz]
What bothers me is his statement suggesting that nobody else "in the entire history" of guitar making has tapped on wood and listened to it. Now, THAT is just pure BS, and to make this kind of statement on a public venue such as NPR is unacceptable. That is simply an outright false statement, that totally misrepresents the craft to the public. He could have easily put this in a more positive way which would have reflected more correctly on the craft as a whole.


Grant[/QUOTE]

I listened to the NPR item as my wife and I were putting supper together, so my memory is probably inaccurate. What I recall was that TJ said something about listening for the 'music' in the wood, and then saying that he was the only luthier who talked that way. My wife immediately piped up: "That's silly! I thought luthiers were always talking about stuff like that." I agreed with her.
No matter whether the interview was edited down or not- the piece was an undisguised bit of self-puffery and boasting about his personal stash of red spruce, key to the golden age, blah, blah, blah.... as if recapturing the prewar Martin sound is the goal of all luthiers. They are factory guitars after all, not instruments by Torres or Strad.
He's on the 'jerk list' for me as well.
By the way, I don't think self-promotion like this (implying that one is uniquely gifted or insightful) is desirable or warranted, ever.
John

And, yes, I have no doubt that this was edited substantially, I am refering to one specific statement that said specifically that nobody in the history of guitar making has ever done this before.

If you missed that, go back and listen again. It is there, and unedited.

Grant

[QUOTE=Grant Goltz] And, yes, I have no doubt that this was edited substantially, I am refering to one specific statement that said specifically that nobody in the history of guitar making has ever done this before.

If you missed that, go back and listen again. It is there, and unedited.

Grant[/QUOTE]

Grant,

I just did and I hear him say "I don't know anybody in the history of this business who has talked about it this way so this is not the sort of a normal conversation you would necessarily be having with someone in this business. . .".

You hear what you want to hear.

Any one have the link to the sound clips of the "Underground Elevator", "Squeaky Bathtub", "Helper Monkey" and "A Bike on a Wooden Velodrome"?

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I wanted to listen again and see if my original reaction was too harsh. Just to be clear, here are two actual quotes...not edited and not taken out of context:

1) "Most people are trying to make guitars that are beautiful..." Not most factories or not beginners...most people (luthiers)

2) "I don't know anybody in the history of this business who has talked about it this way." The word "it" in this instance referred to tap tuning. Just imagine how many posts on this forum alone have referred to tap tuning! This statement is incredulous and I find it offensive.

As has already been stated...He would have been more informative and better served by comparing factory-built to hand-built. Instead, he attempted to elevate himself over other luthiers by stating something blatantly false and misleading. Words are powerful, they have meaning and he had ample time to prepare for what he was going to say before the microphone was ever in front of him.

Nothing wrong with self-promotion. I stand by my original statement that this was self-promotion at its worst. Not only that, he dishonored and disrespected an entire guild of people who do this for a living.

He owes every luthier who has ever tapped a piece of wood an apology IMHO.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I don't really want to get into a pissing match or this but I have re-listened to the clip and as Dave has already stated and quoted TJ to saying

"I don't know anybody in the history of this business who has talked about it this way so this is not the sort of a normal conversation you would necessarily be having with someone in this business. . .".

This is exactly what he said. His focus is also stated as such, "finding the music in the trees..."
Remember also that he worked for Martin for some time and this is most likely his general grid or view of the guitar making business not necessarily the small shop hand builders.

So what if the guy has a love relationship with Adi spruce, that's certainly his prerogative. I'm so glad that there are different woods that give different sounds otherwise we may all just be pre-war Martin lovers. I personally don't really care for Martin guitars, now I've only heard about 30 different Martins, and none pre-war so maybe I'm missing out, but I ain't no bluegrass southern boy looking for the right git-fiddle to play.

You can take this for what it's worth, but putting someone on your "jerk" list for sharing his musings and insight on tapping wood is a little bit immature in my mind. You don't have to like the guy, but lets me mature about it.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, Rod.

Merry Christmas, bro!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I can agree to that my friend JJ

Merry Christmas to you as well.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Well... having some experience with PR I can tell you that sometimes people change your intent by cutting out pieces of what you said. Perhaps he said something else that clarified his earlier statement.

And personally, I thought the spirit of what he was referring to was in relation to tapping as a foreign idea amongst factories, not small builders.

And 2) in those settings it is sometimes difficult to express yourself accurately and you end up saying something you didn't intend.

Personally, I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt.
Brock Poling39074.7585185185

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I tap wood and listen, some taps I like better than others, but how "tap tone" will predictably manifest itself in a final assembled guitar is what I would like to know the answer to.

Well, cut some slack, sure.

In a public venue such as NPR, the only thing that ends up being significant is how the public perceives what they hear. I have asked a few non-luthier folks and the response has been similar from all. But while it is unfortunate that the public may have "heard" an erroneous message, I guess the up side of it all is that almost none of them will even remember it a few weeks from now

'nuff said

Grant

Well Folks, I’m gonna put in my 1 ? cents in here!

I”m a newbe to this forum, and certainly no luthier (YET)

But, my gut feeling about this man, is that his heart is in his work! And, I get the sense, that he has a real passion for what he calls “finding the music in the trees.” It also seems that he has a genuine desire to build instruments that reflect that passion.

What has been said about the media is absolutely correct! Unfortunately, the media has a habit of making an interview into a story of what THEY think is newsworthy. And, there is no doubt in my mind, that they did not have luthiers in their mind when they put out the story.

Also, I would guess that if TJ Thompson had the chance to address the issues of this topic, we would find that there was so much more to what he was trying to say.

Anyway - thank you Kim! I know very little about tap toning, so I found the story sort of interesting. The story reminded me once again that I have so much to learn about luthierie!

Sincerely, Robert

“Circumstances do not make a man, they reveal him”

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

When I saw this thread at first, and listened to the radio piece, I thought "Cool, TJ is using an audio-only broadcast on radio to let the general public know about one way that luthiers work toward beautiful sound."
Then, I come back, and a bunch of guys are blasting TJ over a quote or misquote etc.

Guys! What the heck? This isn't the spirit of what the OLF is about is it?

I've had the pleasure of meeting TJ and talking with him. He's not an arrogant guy, and is very passionate about the sound of wood and how it is a big key to how the great old Martins sound.
We need to cut folks some slack here and not get our shorts all in a bunch over things like this.
When and if you folks ever start building guitars as perfect as TJ's, then you will have earned the right to criticize him. Even then...you have to ask yourself if it is appropriate to do so.

Respectfully,

Don

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Don Williams]
When and if you folks ever start building guitars as perfect as TJ's, then you will have earned the right to criticize him. Even then...you have to ask yourself if it is appropriate to do so.

Don[/QUOTE]
Don-
I didn't see any criticism of TJ's guitars or lutherie skills in the posts. Surely you are not suggesting that lutherie skill should exempt a person from any criticism of their behaviour?
When you invite a radio crew into your shop/home you change the rules and what you say is 'fair game' for criticism or comment.
I thought folks were quite restrained in their comments here. For example, nobody jumped on the TJ quote (in a previous article) which can be paraphrased as "I'm a better luthier because I'm a better person."
John

Interesting clip but as usual I generally ignore most of what I hear on NPR. What struck me was that you need to cut your own trees to know the wood. For me personally, if I had invested the time and effort into producing my tops from scratch, I'd be more inclined to find it superior as well.

On the other hand,
[QUOTE=Rod True] I don't really want to get into a pissing match....... I ain't no bluegrass southern boy looking for the right git-fiddle to play.[/QUOTE] this struck a nerve as being a bit condescending and stereotyping.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

[QUOTE=Don A] Interesting clip but as usual I generally ignore most of what I hear on NPR. What struck me was that you need to cut your own trees to know the wood. For me personally, if I had invested the time and effort into producing my tops from scratch, I'd be more inclined to find it superior as well.

On the other hand,
[QUOTE=Rod True] I don't really want to get into a pissing match....... I ain't no bluegrass southern boy looking for the right git-fiddle to play.[/QUOTE] this struck a nerve as being a bit condescending and stereotyping.[/QUOTE]

Your right Don, it was stereotyping, as the majority of bluegrass players that I've heard talk about guitars believe that Adi spruce is the king of spruce, bar none (period). Sorry if it sounded condescending, I only meant it to be stereotyping.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson