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Pickups and Archtops
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=1035		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ray L [ Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:13 am ]
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Hi Guys,

As I'm working on my first archtop, I keep thinking about putting a pickup in it. Has anyone here tried K&K's Pure Archtop pickups without the usual floating humbucker attached to the pickguard near the end of the fingerboard? I just don't understand the use of the humbucker, I figure that I might as well build an electric guitar that way, with adjustments to a preamp, it can pretty much sound the same.

Any suggestions or help would be appreciated.

Ray
Author:  Dickey [ Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:30 am ]
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These pickups can be installed two ways. With the two sided tape supplied in the kit, or with superglue also supplied in the kit.

The instructions comment to the fact you will attain between 30 to 40 percent more signal from the two transducers if you use the superglue attachment.

Of course, some folks want reversibility, hence the tape which makes the pickups removable. While I've not installed them in archtops, I've done a number of flattops and it's fairly straightforward.

I recommend an Irwin stepped ream (drill) to cut the endpin to the needed size. You have to chuck it short on the shaft to penetrate the full tail block to 1/2 inch. Then you may need a wrap of tape on the threads to shim the jack perfectly in the hole.

A really smart engineer, placed a hole at the end of the jack. That allows insertion of a shaft like an ice pick, and allows tightening of the outer nut without turning the jack. Pretty sharp. Then the end of the jack receives the neck strap cap which has flats on the side for sure tightening. They did their homework.

Unless someone chimes in whose done it on an archtop, you could make it in two steps, use the tape method, if you like it that far then do the super glue to gain full output. Good luck if you try it and let us know how it turns out.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:13 pm ]
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Ray,
K&K pickups are Great! I just put a pure western set of transducers on a cheap DEAN acoustic... and they were amazing. I told the customer when you go to sell the guitar sell the pickups instead and just tell people "the guitar comes with!".
I use a strobe piano tuner and it's pretty sensative. I rarely get a good read from acoustics ( well not as good as electrics for the obvious reasons), when plugged into this cheap guitar I was actualy seeing some real signal strength. I was real impressed because normally I get two - three bars tops of activity. I was getting four and five! Most electric guitars don't get that. I realy like K & K.!

p.s. I opted to do the permanent mount right off the bat. It was a good move because the pickups are that good. I am very happy with them and more importantly so is the customer.

pps I know...it's not an archtop...but the pickups are good and I figured you would want to know it Dave-SKG38396.8454282407
Author:  Dickey [ Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:31 pm ]
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Dave, what do you think about placement on an archtop.

K and K shows them just inside the F-holes.

However on a steel string with a four inch hole, they align them directly under the saddle of the bridge.

With that as a guide, it makes sense to me that directly under the feet of the bridge might be good on an archtop? Whaddya think? Of course getting them there would be the problem.
Author:  Dave-SKG [ Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:35 am ]
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I think your right. Doesn't K&K say something about Bridge mount or is that a different p/u? . I would try to get them under the bridge. I got such good sound and response right under the bridge on the Plate ( which of course the archtop won't have). I think it would be worth the effort. Maybe use those extended alligator type hemostats or something. The glue drys pretty quick even tho it's thick. Which is nice if you hit right on the first try. I practiced cold a couple times to get the feel and with the four inch hole ... it went pretty smooth. Great pickups!
Author:  Ray L [ Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:24 pm ]
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Guys,

Thanks for your input. The reason that I'm thinking of the pickups now is that it would be hard after I put the top on to install them. I was also wondering about the location. Makes sense to me to use the Pure Western series pickups right underneath the bridge. I'm making a D'Aquisto style bridge (like the Solo model), so it would act like a steel string bridge.

Ray
Author:  Dickey [ Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:12 pm ]
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Knowing how they work, I bet they locate them at the Fhole for ease of installation. But knowing how they work under the bridge would probably be optimum. I'll ask them.

Okay, I'm awaiting their response. One thing we may not have considered is the curvature of the top. A flat plane may be needed to mount the transducers. they are only .775 wide, so how much would an archtop curve in that distance?

The f-hole area may be much flatter? Dickey38398.0180439815
Author:  Dickey [ Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:35 am ]
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[QUOTE=Tech Dept. Response] This is a good question, I have not tried this in an archtop myself but I tried in in Macaferries with floating bridges.

Pickups under the bridge inside tend to sound nasal and midrangy with floating bridges.

I use the f hole position in the archtops mainly because this is about the only one that can be reached after the instrument is built but I also found it to be a good sounding one.

You may experiment with different positions but there is unfortunately not a lot more I could tell you. QUOTE]

It's always a crap shoot when you try something new Ray. And the committment to do an archtop before construction is profound. However, if you did the standard 3 Pickups and put them where you desire on the sound board, I bet they would sound pretty good, due to the nature of the pickup.

A lot of it, is the sound you are after. I have no doubt that you would get good sound, and if used in conjunction with the Pure Preamp, you could model the sound with the adjustable BASS/MID/TREB pots, and adjust the GAIN internaly to your satisfaction.

A step further, would be to add one more avenue to the arsenal, install a Trinity system, which would give you a second channel and dual preamp. Sure would be nice if those things had a big trap door down on the tail of the guitar somewhere.

Good luck whatever you do. Maybe someone else will have some ideas for you. Leave the trodden path and you might just end up with a guitar like Trigger, Willie Nelson's one of a kind. It's served him well though hasn't it.Dickey38398.5669791667
Author:  Ray L [ Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:37 am ]
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Bruce,

Since I'm not finished carving the top, I can always "flatten" out the areas where the pickups would be located. Looking at the top, the areas where the sound holes would be located is also curved slightly. I'm not sure of the radius, but again, if this is the optimal place for the pickups, I can flatten this area out a bit too.

Do you know someone at K&K that would know about this stuff?

Ray
Author:  John How [ Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:49 am ]
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I think maybe the nasal thin sound has something to do with the action of an archtop as opposed to a flat top. The archtop being a sort of pumping action if my thinking is correct and moving the pickups slightly away from that would tend to fill and warm up the sound.
Just pure western speculation or bs depending on how you look at it. JH
Author:  Dickey [ Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:02 am ]
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Ray, the quote above is the K and K tech dept.

All around your problem is the access internally to the various positionings. Secondary is the curvature of the top, easily countered during construction, but difficult to impossible to move if you didn't like it.

Archtop makers are a breed few and far between, so conservatism would be applauded I'm sure. Experimentation though would be fantastic if done well.

Example, make a guitar with a large access area on either the back, or the lower bout. Then by using the tapes furnished with the K and K pickups which make pickups removable, find for yourself the sweet spot in an archtop for these pickups, then you could permanently mount them in subsequent instruments using your node knowledge. I'm sure there are good, better, and best places for these type transducers in an archtop, problem is: no one has, either, done it, and if they have, then they haven't made that knowledge availble. Good luck.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:49 am ]
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Why not mount them temporarily on the outside with the tape, and swap them around to the inside once you find the spot(s)?

You could glue a slip of wood to the pickup face and then shape that to fit the curve of the top where it's going.

Actually, on arched instruments, there will be a 'reflex line' between the concave and convex parts of the arching. These lines usually make a sort of 'X' out from the bridge on the centerlne to the edge above the shoulders and below the hips. You can find them with a straightedge easily enough: it will lie raight on the top with no gaps except at the top end where the bridge is. The K&Ks would sit nicely on that line.

I've been thinking of pickups for my winter' archtop, and some sort of piezo tp transducer is one thing I'm considering. Doesn't sound like a magnetic, of course, but then, this isn't a 'New Yorker' either.
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