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| AARRGGHH! broke my sides http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10396 |
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| Author: | crich [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:20 am ] |
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Ok, BAD DAY! I just broke my ,wife's Xmas present , both of my Ovangkol(shedua) sides.  I've bent mahagony and myrtle on my pipe with no problems, only sprintizing the area that I'm bending on a damp rag to produce steam. It didn't just crack in one place,but it "came apart" in four or five places along the bend. Am I too hot,too wet,too dry or should I just see how far I can toss them?  I'm sooo disappointed. Clinton
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:22 am ] |
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Having them fall apart sounds like too wet to me. Sorry to hear about though. |
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| Author: | Dave Rector [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:30 am ] |
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Clinton, how thick were the sides you were trying to bend? |
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| Author: | crich [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:42 am ] |
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.087" I made sure they we're thin enough. I think I need someone to define sprintz to me. I do bend them on a damp rag and sprintz the wood on both sides. Maybe too wet like Jim said. Clinton |
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| Author: | GregG [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:49 am ] |
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Might have been a tad thick at .087 for Shedua? Greg |
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| Author: | John How [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:00 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=crich] .087" I made sure they we're thin enough. I think I need someone to define sprintz to me. I do bend them on a damp rag and sprintz the wood on both sides. Maybe too wet like Jim said. Clinton[/QUOTE] I'm not sure what you mean when you say "I do bend them on a damp rag", can you expand on that? Most of my side wood get's thinned to about .080" or less. Remember though that it's the heat not steam that allows you to bend the wood. The moisture is only there to keep you from scorching the wood. |
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| Author: | peterm [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:28 pm ] |
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Using a damp rag to keep the wood moist may not let the wood get hot enough to bend. I bet thats the problem. Mahogany is pretty easy to bend and myrtle bends like plastic but other woods are a lot trickier and stuborn. I recommend bending the wood without the rag and if it looks like the wood is getting dryed out and possibly get scorched, you can spray again and keep going...apply enough pressure to conform to the curve but don't force it. You can start bending before the water starts to "sizzle" on the bender and as it gets hotter the wood will start to work easier when it gets to the perfect temp. then you can keet the heat at that point. |
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| Author: | crich [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:48 pm ] |
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I think that is the beginning of my problem. I thought the damp rag was to add steam, as the rag dries I soak it down pretty good to obtain steam. So, should I spritz the wood directly when it dries out? I thought I should be bending the wood fairly dry?  I'll try thinning the sides more also. Clinton
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:03 pm ] |
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Clinton, sorry to hear about that... I never bend any sides over .080". Usually they are even thinner than that. I don't have an extra set of sides exactly like that, but I may have another set that are a slightly different color if you need them. |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:36 pm ] |
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Clinton, get a digital thermometer from Walmart, 12 bucks. That way you can get an idea of how hot your pipe is. It should dance a water droplet if it's hot enough. When bending on a hot pipe, you can get to a point where you feel the wood bending in your hands. I bend my waists now by hand and of course cutaways too. Other than that I use the side bender and a blanket. Like someone said, you gotta get the wood hot, close to 300 degrees F before it bends. Good luck, sorry for your bad luck so far. Now, get out there and bend some S'es in the wood left from those shedua sides. You'll learn a lot making pretzels out of what's left. bd |
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| Author: | crich [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:38 pm ] |
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Thanks Don, I'm going to try something tomorrow and if it don't work I'll email you, do you have any bridges or purfling? I guess I'm befuddled on the whole wet,too wet idea? I also hear that some actually soak their wood first. But others and LMI say that too much water causes curled or wavy wood fibers and straight wood fibers to pull apart at different speeds,thus, seperation or cracks. I'd love someone to expalin these differences to me. I'm sure others would be interested as well. Clinton
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:34 pm ] |
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Chris, that's interesting that you say that regarding Bob's soaking. It seems to me that many of the old time veterains out there really soak their wood before bending. Having just finished Clapton's guitar, when they get to the part where Wayne Henderson bends the side (BRW) he soaks them in a tub as well which sits on a couple of hot plates. He gets the water near boiling first than soaks the wood for 15 minutes. I've seen many other "old timers" soak their wood as well prior to bending. So why have we gotten away from this???? Maybe it all has to do with how long you let the wood "cook" if you've soaked the sides. Maybe the fact that LMI and others say that to much water causes curled or wavy wood was that the sides were pulled out of the bender to soon.??? I'd like to hear some more too Clinton in regards to this. Edit.... Keving Gallagher.....how do you bend your sides? You've built over 500 guitars, I'm sure you can pass some wisdom and insight down to us. Also, John Hall has maybe bent more guitar sides than we really care to know (actually I would like to know) so he too would be one to pour down insight and wisdom on us. |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:54 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=crich] Thanks Don, I'm going to try something tomorrow and if it don't work I'll email you, do you have any bridges or purfling? I guess I'm befuddled on the whole wet,too wet idea? I also hear that some actually soak their wood first. But others and LMI say that too much water causes curled or wavy wood fibers and straight wood fibers to pull apart at different speeds,thus, seperation or cracks. I'd love someone to expalin these differences to me. I'm sure others would be interested as well. Clinton[/QUOTE]
It really depends on the species of wood being bent as to how much water you need. I've never bent this particular wood. A wet rag will drive steam into the wood getting it pretty wet in there. If it's a stress facture why would it break in multiple pieces? You can just stand there with a spray bottle near by at rewet as needed. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:56 pm ] |
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Sorry to hear about this Clinton, i hope it turns out well for you tomorrow. Rod, isn't it Charlie Hoffman who also soaks his sides? |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:20 pm ] |
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Yup. He may have switch to spray bottle though, I'm not sure. I haven't been to his website in a while. |
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| Author: | LuthierSupplier [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:15 pm ] |
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Yep, another long time builder Edward Dick(who's built over 350 guitars) throws his sides in his fish pond for about 2 hours before bending. Doesn't matter why type of wood it is. He never cracks sides. But he uses 2 heating blankets, so they get real hot fast. Bummer about the sides. Been there and done that, it's no fun. Unfortunately, this is the only way to learn. Use those broken sides to keep learning. Don't give up! Tracy |
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| Author: | Bob Steidl [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:16 pm ] |
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Clinton, take heart, figured shedua is a difficult wood to bend. It might be bendable on a pipe but only by a very experienced few. I guess I've bent 40 or 50 sets and only even broken 2 sides; 1 was shedua. John Calkin, who works for Huss and Dalton and who has built with as many unusual woods as anyone, pronounced it nearly impossible to bend in his article on alternative woods in AL. That said, I eventually pulled it off (as have others) but I'd suggest a bender and blanket. And unfortunately, it might be the best sounding guitar I've ever built... Boo! |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:25 pm ] |
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Interesting this wet or not to wet debate. I suppose it's whatever makes you confident. If you remember on the Taylor, factory Friday, side bending episode they use no water at all just wrap in brown paper and bend. This may be due to their particular side benders, but wood is wood. Me, I just very lightly spritz before I wrap, I really don't think it's necessary, but well you know, old habits. Colin |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:27 pm ] |
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I suspect the issue was more the combination of the thickness of the wood and the temperature of the pipe. I never soak any wood anymore, but then I don't bend on the pipe anymore either. Clinton, I too would suggest making a bending form and using a blanket rather than a pipe for this wood. As others have said, you're going to have to work the wood on the pipe until you feel the fibers start to relax and bend on their own. |
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| Author: | martinedwards [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:42 am ] |
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Ah but it's worth it, Ovankol is beautiful. I have an Ovankol Turner as my main gigging acoustic and it's lovely. My first attempt at maple I broke both sides and then I cut down the back to make a mandolin. I moved the glued back today and broke the join!!! Maybe I'm not meant to work with maple!!! |
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| Author: | Tom Armstrong [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:53 am ] |
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I just bent sides for a Shedual Terz with no problem, but our methods are far apart as I use blankets and forms. I took my sides to .075 and they bent well but had "more than usual" springback. Reading through the posts, I wonder if old timers soaked their woods because of the bending methods employed and also wonder if they would do the same given the advent in use of heating blankets and forms??? Tom Armstrong |
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| Author: | crich [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:04 am ] |
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I haven't settled on a shape and I really like to "feel" the wood, or I thought I did before breaking a set,while bending. I've read where some still bend waists and cutaways on a pipe,like Bruce, so seeing that's the tightest,(hardest) bend, why not just finish off on the pipe? Maybe I should change my philosophy,cave in, and built a form. I read here that Del Langejans uses a one piece 1/8" sides,how does he bend those? Oh,there is a lot to learn! Thanks,Clinton
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| Author: | Colonial Tonwds [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:07 am ] |
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Clinton, I have about 200 sets of Ovangkol sides on hand. If you need a set to match your back, please send me a pic. I've bent quite a few Ovangkol sides without any problems. I take my sides down to .085-.080, spritz them with distlled water, have my bender plugged in, hot and ready to go. If I can help, let me know. I know it's a bummer busting a side but then again each species of wood works differently. Part of the building experience is developing a "feel" for different woods. Let me know if I can help. Stephen |
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| Author: | Larry Davis [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:30 am ] |
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Can you post a good, clear photo of the breaks. Maybe we can learn more about the cause from the break pattern. Maybe it was compounded by unseen run-out or something. |
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| Author: | charliewood [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:39 am ] |
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Ive read quite a few posts on this subject here and elsewhere and in a couple books, and while there are varying opinions about this, it appears to me {although I have bent exaclty 0 sets of sides} That steam was the main thing that used to be used to get the wood hot enough to ("plasticize"?) the wood enough to bend it, and it had really less to do with the actual moisture, more so the heat in the steam{although the steam was valuable to prevent scorch}. Before the advent of side bending blankets the steam box and hot pipe were the cutting edge technologies, and the side effect of the steam was to prevent scorching as well and carry heat {with respect to the hotpipe}. I may be Way Off here - and if so please correct me {please be gentle  }
but this is the way Ive come to understand it anyhow. Cheers Charliewood |
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