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| Classical builders--what type of neck? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10461 |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:51 pm ] |
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For all you classical builders out there, I'm curious how many attach the neck using some other method besides the traditional spanish heel. It seems appealing to use some other type like a SS to make the finishing job much easier. Also, it would allow for future adjustment or even a truss rod. As a 30+ year player, I can't say I've ever played a classical without a spanish heel and am not sure I'd notice a difference. For all you classical builders, what say you? Cheers! John |
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| Author: | jfrench [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:47 pm ] |
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I don't see any reason to depart from the traditional integral method. I think it is best for classicals. |
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:39 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=jfrench] I don't see any reason to depart from the traditional integral method. I think it is best for classicals.[/QUOTE] The main reasons I'm thinking about it are: 1. The FP process would be easier if the neck weren't attached. 2. You could actually make adjustments with a truss rod or a neck reset, granted it's almost never required on a classical anyhow. I didn't think much about it until I saw some big name builders like DeJong and Gilbert who were using non-traditional joints which got me wondering. |
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| Author: | Marc [ Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:47 pm ] |
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I like the traditional spanish heel joint, makes a very lightweight guitar (no truss rod) and maintains the curve of the sides into the heel. I personally don't like sides turning hard to form a flat spot at the top of a classical. |
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| Author: | Marc [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:03 am ] |
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I was trying to review your V-Joint tutorial in the archives but the pictures don't show because they seem to be linked to your site. V-Joint |
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| Author: | Gary L [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:16 am ] |
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I prefer using a spline joint because as John suggested, it is very convenient to French polish the body independent of the neck. The spline also facilitates the execution of an elevated fingerboard. I used to use the Spanish heel but have not noticed a sonic difference. |
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| Author: | matt jacobs [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:15 am ] |
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John, Greg Byers as well as many other highly respected builders use "other" methods of neck attachment. I don't think it affects the sound much. In the end it probably boils down to what you feel works best with your style of instrument and building techniques. |
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| Author: | jfrench [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:55 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Marc] I was trying to review your V-Joint tutorial in the archives but the pictures don't show because they seem to be linked to your site. V-Joint[/QUOTE] Actually it acidentally got deleted while my host was changing to a faster server and I haven't yet found the time to upload everything again. I'll repost the V-joint tutorial this weekend once I find the pics. |
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| Author: | jfrench [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:02 am ] |
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[QUOTE=John Elshaw] [QUOTE=jfrench] I don't see any reason to depart from the traditional integral method. I think it is best for classicals.[/QUOTE] The main reasons I'm thinking about it are: 1. The FP process would be easier if the neck weren't attached. 2. You could actually make adjustments with a truss rod or a neck reset, granted it's almost never required on a classical anyhow. I didn't think much about it until I saw some big name builders like DeJong and Gilbert who were using non-traditional joints which got me wondering.[/QUOTE] Hi John, I agree that the FP process would be a bit easier without a neck in the way (or a bridge for that matter), but not so much that I would change the neck construction. There is something very appealing about a traditionally constructed classical to me. The method of attaching the neck may not effect the sound, but then again it might. In my personal, though probably unpopular, opinion tradition shouldn't be diverted from for the sake of ease and we should strive to match the abilities of the old makers before deciding if another method is better. I also tend not to see a need for a truss rod, or even any kind of neck reinforcement for a classical. If the neck needs adjusting pulling the frets and planing the fingerboard is at least easier then on a steel string. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:07 am ] |
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I just had this discussion with a friend of mine who has built around 1000 guitars now. He includes a classical in his series. His feeling was that the dovetail was superior to the spanish heal and feels that it would probably have the 'traditional' joint if they had thought about doing, although the dovetail would have been more difficult for them which may be another reason they don't do it. Following a letter Richard Brune sent to one of the trade publications expressing his opinions on the traditional joint, his concerns were the same as my friends, that the heal is not a well design joint. On the weight issue, a dovetail should be no heavier than a spanish heal, infact, it may be lighter and is might be smaller in dimension/mass. Just my no experience musings as I wonder on this a lot myself.....Two Flamencos are scheduled as the next builds....probably dovetail neck joints. Shane |
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| Author: | Marc [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:36 am ] |
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[QUOTE=jfrench] There is something very appealing about a traditionally constructed classical to me. ... In my personal, though probably unpopular, opinion tradition shouldn't be diverted from for the sake of ease and we should strive to match the abilities of the old makers before deciding if another method is better. ... [/QUOTE]  Well put Joshua, I'm of the same opinion for 'classicals'--- even the name implies tradition.
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:46 am ] |
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For those of you who picked 'other', what type of neck joint do you use? I have a Gurian steel string where he uses some type of wooden pegs for the joint. I'm not exactly sure how he does it but I've never seen it used anywhere else. John |
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| Author: | Marc [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:50 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Shane Neifer]... Following a letter Richard Brune sent to one of the trade publications expressing his opinions on the traditional joint, his concerns were the same as my friends, that the heal is not a well design joint. .... [/QUOTE] I'm surprised. Did he say why it wasn't well designed? There are some pretty good builders that used this joint --- Torres, Hauser, Romanillos (slight varitation), .... |
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| Author: | Brad Goodman [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:15 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Marc] I like the traditional spanish heel joint, makes a very lightweight guitar (no truss rod) and maintains the curve of the sides into the heel. I personally don't like sides turning hard to form a flat spot at the top of a classical.[/QUOTE] Marc, There is no reason to have a flat spot at the top of the gutar. The inside of the heel should be carved to conform to the body shape. An extreme example of this would be an A style mandolin neck with a dovetail joint. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:36 am ] |
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[QUOTE=John Elshaw] I have a Gurian steel string where he uses some type of wooden pegs for the joint. I'm not exactly sure how he does it but I've never seen it used anywhere else. John[/QUOTE] Sorry to get off-topic here.... John- Gurian developed the pinned mortise joint that's described in the Cumpiano and Natelson book, as I recall. A home-made tool is required to insert/remove the pins. Even Cumpiano has moved to bolt-on joints for steel-strings these days, but it was one of the first 'easy to undo' neck joints used in better-quality guitars. No doubt the historians will correct me on all of this! John |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:00 am ] |
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John, you are correct. Although I'm not 100% sure that Michael Gurian was the one who invented that particular joint, but could be. It was in either the 60's or 70's when they started doing it I believe. |
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| Author: | Marc [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:09 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Brad Goodman] Marc, There is no reason to have a flat spot at the top of the gutar. The inside of the heel should be carved to conform to the body shape. An extreme example of this would be an A style mandolin neck with a dovetail joint.[/QUOTE] You're right, I understand, like Greg Byers. The heel and the inside foot is shaped then joined. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:13 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Marc] [QUOTE=Shane Neifer]... Following a letter Richard Brune sent to one of the trade publications expressing his opinions on the traditional joint, his concerns were the same as my friends, that the heal is not a well design joint. .... [/QUOTE] I'm surprised. Did he say why it wasn't well designed? There are some pretty good builders that used this joint --- Torres, Hauser, Romanillos (slight varitation), .... [/QUOTE] He felt the a good section of the joint, when made to fit well, would result in a glue starved area. I can't say that I particularily agree as there is still sufficient area inside of the sides against the inner heel. But I do agree that, from a woodworking perspective, there are better ways to make this joint. One of his other concerns was the reliance on modern adhesives allows for 'creep' and since this joint has little mechanical aspect and relays on the properties of the glue, creep can be an issue if the wrong adhesive is chosen. Hope that helps. Shane |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:14 am ] |
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Shane, I can think of at least one highly respected classical builder who used the dovetail neck joint -- Ignacio Fleta. He learned how to build violins before he began building guitars, and brought that skill set along when building guitars. I prefer the Spanish heel method, complete with the "foot." To my way of thinking, this little extension (the foot) actually serves to help brace the back (and thus the entire guitar) against string pull, resulting in a more stable instrument. I have used the bolt-on method with a couple of classicals, one in the mistaken opinion that it would be faster than the traditional Spanish heel (it wasn't for me, at least). But for the other, which has a raised fingerboard, really the only way to do it is either to bolt on the neck or to use a spline joint. Greg Byers uses a spline joint on his raised fingerboard classicals. I went with the bolt-on method because I already had experience with it. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:25 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] He felt the a good section of the joint, when made to fit well, would result in a glue starved area. I can't say that I particularily agree[/QUOTE] Me neither. If anybody knows his stuff, Brune does, which is why I'm puzzled by this. Traditionally, a classical's sides are fitted dry. So there's no glue in the slot areas to be starved. And for the sections of the inner heel that are glued to the soundboard and the back, I don't see them as areas with potential glue starvation problems either. Certainly no more so than you'd have the same sort of problems gluing down a headstock veneer or a fingerboard. Less, really, given the amount of surface area involved. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:49 am ] |
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Could someone 'splain the spline? |
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| Author: | Marc [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:53 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] [QUOTE=Marc] [QUOTE=Shane Neifer]... Following a letter Richard Brune sent to one of the trade publications expressing his opinions on the traditional joint, his concerns were the same as my friends, that the heal is not a well design joint. .... [/QUOTE] I'm surprised. Did he say why it wasn't well designed? There are some pretty good builders that used this joint --- Torres, Hauser, Romanillos (slight varitation), .... [/QUOTE] He felt the a good section of the joint, when made to fit well, would result in a glue starved area. I can't say that I particularily agree as there is still sufficient area inside of the sides against the inner heel. Shane[/QUOTE] Shane, as you already know, the neck on a spanish heel is part of the heel and block so it's not glued or bolted; the sides just float inside the slots so they aren't glued at all (really starved), all the glueing takes place on the soundboard and back which is typically a sufficiently large area to accommodate a large glue joint. I'm confused by Brune's claim, but that's normal. |
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| Author: | Marc [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:01 am ] |
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Carlton, Slot in both inner block and heel block glued and fit together with a spline. Click on the middle picture on bottom of this page from Byers web site here. |
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| Author: | Brad Goodman [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:24 am ] |
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Can someone tell me why you would use a spline instead of just using a tenon on the end of the neck? I have used the tenon on my classicals. |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:30 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Marc] Carlton, Slot in both inner block and heel block glued and fit together with a spline. Click on the middle picture on bottom of this page from Byers web site here. [/QUOTE] Thanks Marc. Very interesting process. So, does the spline extension hook down into the heel block? His use of epoxy and polyurethane are certainly non-traditional, too! |
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