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Author:	bob_connor [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:02 am ]
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I've been asked by a friend to build him a guitar which will be used solely for accompanying Irish/Scottish fiddle tunes and will always be tuned in DADGAD. So it will be strummed not fingerpicked. (usually like a threshing machine to compete with the plethora of bodhrans that afflict Irish trad sessions ) This is the style of playing you'll hear from Donal Lunny, Donough Hennessy and Steve Cooney. My friend, Ade, tells me that most of these guys are using guitars with slotted headstocks, and whilst I can't confirm it, this would lead me to think that they are 12 fretters. Because of the keys that Irish traditional tunes are played in there is always a capo on second fret or above and nothing is used above twelth fret. He wants an OM/000 shape with enhanced bottom end. My thinking at the moment is a deep body OM/000 with a 12 or 14 fret, 25.34 scale neck with an ADI/Lutz top and custom string gauges to compensate for the de-tuning. Parabolic or scalloped braces I'm not sure of yet but I'm tending toward scalloped for the bottom end. Back out of mahogany or EIR. I've also suggested to him that EBEABE might be a better tuning to eliminate the second fret capo and eliminate the string tension problem. So there's a few variables to throw into the mix here that I 'd like to throw open for discussion or comment. Thanks Bob

Author:	Serge Poirier [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:09 am ]
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Bob, i'd give mahogany a try with Lutz, i'd make the sides less deeper or narrower on that OOO so that it would send loud and would have a 14 fret neck join at the body...There you go, you have my newb opinion! Serge Poirier39101.7156134259

Author:	Colin S [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:48 am ]
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I play a lot in DADGad and the other dropped tunings, playing a lot of Jigs (mainly Western Isles) in the tunings, as well as the more modern Davy Graham style DADGad. I have always used a dedicated guitar for them mainly because I want to use a balanced set of strings just for the tunings. I do however play only fingerstyle never strumming. A group of us spent some years experimenting with woods and bracing patterns for DADGad guitars and eventually settled on Mahogany or Walnut for the back and sides, with the top braced in a "parabolic" pattern to give the attack and fast response that the style needs. Tops always in European spruce, though Shane's Lutz should work fine as well. For the true Celtic sound the back braces should also be "parabolic" with prefereably an X braces loxer bout for the extra kick to the sound. I build on 14 fret OM shapes but mainly because I want access to the higher frets for the fingerstyle playing, I see no reason that a 12 fret OOO style shouldn't work just as well. I'm currently building a DADGad guitar for myself, it won't let me upload photos at the moment, but you can see a shot of the top bracing (OM 14-fret) if you scrolldown in this thread. Top is Euro. top bracing DADGad The back is on the archives somewhere but that is also parabolic X braced in Walnut. Colin

Author:	bob_connor [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:09 am ]
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Thanks for the input Serge and Colin Mahogany is the go I think. (why would you suggest anything else Colin ) We're actually in the middle of building two OM's at present that are EIR and Englemann. One with parabolic and the other with scalloped braces so that we can compare the two. I'm like you Colin and am tending toward parabolic but I guess this will be a good opportunity to allow the customer to play both of these guitars and decide what they prefer tonally. We also have the Port Fairy Folk Festival here in March so that will be an opportunity to have a chat with some of the musos playing that style and have a squiz at their instruments(Lunasa and Luka Bloom are playing as well as one of my favourite bluegrass guys Dan Crary and, as well, Ralph McTell) Thanks for the advice gentleman. Cheers Bob

Author:	Bruce Dickey [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:19 am ]
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Here is your picture Colin. Right click, copy, and paste in new spot.... Nice top bracing too.

Author:	Jim Watts [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:53 pm ]
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Does a slightly longer scale length make sense on guitar built just for DADGAD?

Author:	Colin S [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:41 pm ]
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Jim I just go with 25.4, you spend a lot of time capoing up in DADGad anyway. I think the important part is to use a set of strings just for DADGad, which is why I always have a couple of guitars dedicated to it. Use say, lights on the 3,4,5 strings and mediums on the 1,2,6. I buy my strings separately especially. This keeps the balance between the strings better. Colin PS thanks Bruce.

Author:	Dave White [ Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:36 pm ]
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[QUOTE=bob_connor] This is the style of playing you'll hear from Donal Lunny, Donough Hennessy and Steve Cooney. My friend, Ade, tells me that most of these guys are using guitars with slotted headstocks, and whilst I can't confirm it, this would lead me to think that they are 12 fretters.[/QUOTE] Bob, Donal is mostly a bouzouki man, Donough played a Lowden S guitar (cedar/EIR I think) when he was with Lunasa and I don't know about Steve Cooney but most if not all I've seen use 14 frets clear of the body. Gavin Rawlston plays a Gibson and Jim Murray uses a nylon string (check out his playing with the Sharron Shannon band) so I don't think there is a definitive DADGAD guitar as such. [QUOTE]Because of the keys that Irish traditional tunes are played in there is always a capo on second fret or above and nothing is used above twelth fret.[/QUOTE] Warning - enetering pet-hate zone of mine Well he's obviously never seen Ed Boyd of Flook play. Check out these performances at the Kennedy Centre Flook Capo's make for a very "styalised" accompaniment using 3 or 4 chord shapes. DADGAD is such an accommodating tuning to play anywhere on the neck using 2 or 3 left hand fingerings in ANY key with glorious open strings ringing out. EBEABE would not be a good tuning choice imho as a huge amout of Irish/Scottish stuff is in D G and A and your friend would miss out on the deep ringing D chords. [QUOTE]He wants an OM/000 shape with enhanced bottom end. My thinking at the moment is a deep body OM/000 with a 12 or 14 fret, 25.34 scale neck with an ADI/Lutz top and custom string gauges to compensate for the de-tuning. Parabolic or scalloped braces I'm not sure of yet but I'm tending toward scalloped for the bottom end. Back out of mahogany or EIR. [/QUOTE] I recently built a Lutz/Cuban mahogany guitar for an upcoming young guitarist in the Irish music scene Joe Bardwell: This has parabolic bracing and was between an OM and SJ in size. Scale length is 25.75" and he uses lights (0.012"-0.053"). His original spec was for strong bottom end, but when we talked it through he needed projection, tone and string balance. It's not quite like bluegrass - if you want the percussive bass thud to drive the rhythm then you can alwas put on a 0.065" bottom string like John Doyle!! This guitar is working out really well and Joe is playing it in the Manchester sessions scene. He sent me an e-mail recently and said that Mike McGoldrick has played it and liked it. Great advertising copy for my guitars - "As played by the greatest flute/whistle player" If your friend really wants to cut through in a session then build him a guitar-bouzouki. In a lot of ways I think it fits in a lot better. Dave White39102.3602314815

Author:	Colin S [ Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:10 am ]
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[QUOTE=Dave White] If your friend really wants to cut through in a session then build him a guitar-bouzouki. In a lot of ways I think it fits in a lot better. [/QUOTE] Absolutely. Colin

Author:	bob_connor [ Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:39 am ]
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Thanks for the detailed information Dave. Just the sort of thing I'm looking for. I agree with both you and Colin about the bouzouki but he is very definite about wanting a guitar. He does workshops at some of our local festivals and trad schools in DADGAD guitar as well as live performances so I may have painted him to be wanting this purely for sessions. I like your comment about the strong bottom end Dave. Sometimes what we want is not what we actually require. Cheers Bob

Author:	slackkeymike [ Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:48 am ]
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Mike Doolin built a BEAUTIFUL double neck for Justin King in DADGAD. But I am sure you have all seen it. Mike (Knock on Wood)

Author:	John Elshaw [ Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:13 pm ]
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This might be an ignorant question, but I don't know much about playing Irish music so here it goes. Using a capo totally kills the sound of your guitar and effectively makes it a much shorter scale length instrument. By changing the scale length it also screws up the intonation (guitars with capos never sound in tune). Since you'll be strumming all your music, why don't you leave the capo off and play all the chords without it or in standard tuning? Cheers! John

Author:	bob_connor [ Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:03 pm ]
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I hear what your saying John but we're not trying to change someones playing style here. I have been approached to build an instrument that will suit someone's playing style. This style of fiddle tune accompaniment evolved, I guess, through some of the innovative Irish traditional bands in the seventies and eighties which included such luminaries as Donal Lunny and Andy Irvine. They were incorporating Eastern European elements into Trad Irish music as well as experimenting with alternative tunings, so the haunting, modal sound crept into the vernacular so as to speak. I would assume it's the same in any style of music that players will want to emulate those who are considered masters of their chosen discipline. A couple of these players Dave White mentioned above. Jim Murray who plays with Sharon Shannon (an exceptional accordion player) and Donough Hennesy. (ex Lunasa who are a brilliant Trad Irish band) They use capos extensively and will move them in the middle of a tune set to get particular chord voicings. It would probably be easier to get a bluegrass banjo player to change his tuning to E than get these guys to change what they currently perceive to be the current norm for fiddle tune accompaniment. Hope that gives you some info on what these guys are trying to achieve. Cheers Bob

Author:	John Elshaw [ Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:47 pm ]
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Hi Bob, I agree, that makes sense. I would definitely build whatever the customer wanted. You made me think of another question though--since you are building a guitar which will predominantly use a capo on the 2nd fret, do you setup the intonation to get the best tuning with the capo on? The reason I ask is that many classical players will also capo 2nd fret for lute music. I find it hard to play in tune with the capo on. Maybe a dedicated classical with intonation setup for capo 2 would be best. Actually, what would really be best is if I could afford one of Colin's lutes. Too bad I'll never get rich building guitars! Cheers, John

Author:	Colin S [ Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:48 pm ]
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[QUOTE=John Elshaw] The reason I ask is that many classical players will also capo 2nd fret for lute music. I find it hard to play in tune with the capo on. Maybe a dedicated classical with intonation setup for capo 2 would be best. Actually, what would really be best is if I could afford one of Colin's lutes. Too bad I'll never get rich building guitars! Cheers, John[/QUOTE] Capo on 3 for lute music John, I know that you already know this as you've mentioned it before in other threads. Just so the less well informed don't get confused. Wait till you see my frothcoming archlute John! Colin

Author:	John Elshaw [ Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:05 am ]
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[QUOTE=Colin S] [QUOTE=John Elshaw] The reason I ask is that many classical players will also capo 2nd fret for lute music. I find it hard to play in tune with the capo on. Maybe a dedicated classical with intonation setup for capo 2 would be best. Actually, what would really be best is if I could afford one of Colin's lutes. Too bad I'll never get rich building guitars! Cheers, John[/QUOTE] Capo on 3 for lute music John, I know that you already know this as you've mentioned it before in other threads. Just so the less well informed don't get confused. Wait till you see my frothcoming archlute John! Colin[/QUOTE] Ah, you're right Colin, I didn't even catch that. It's taken me years but I'm finally getting around to transcribing my book of Dowland's lute tabs with the letters to standard tab. I used to be able to read the lute tab really good, but if you don't use it, you definitely lose it. BTW, lets see some pics of your archlute in progress! Cheers! JohnJohn Elshaw39103.6300347222

Author:	Colin S [ Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:43 am ]
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John, I play quite a lot of Dowland both on the lute and guitar, lute tab does take a bit of getting used to! I'm currently practicing hard on a Kevin Aram guitar and started out with the Dowland pieces that I knew from my lute playing. I'm working hard at some Tarrega now as I feel the lute is better on lute pieces and I want to play Spanish music on a "Spanish" guitar. My tutor, when he heard me playing the Dowland said I played it well on the guitar, but better on the lute, he took a book of Tarrega pieces from the shelf and played Cappricio Arabe, and I was hooked! Alhambra here I come! The Archlute is going to be a slow job, I plan to use dolphin carved peg boxes and gold inlay on the neck and boxes, so I have a number of skills to learn! Colin

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