Official Luthiers Forum!

My nephew wants me to build him a wedge shaped guitar.Narrow on the base side.I saw where Cumpiano did it .Of course he`s a master luthier and I`m a chunk of coal.I can antisipate a bunch of problems.I mean is this possible?        &nb sp; James

_________________
James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

[QUOTE=James W B] I`m a chunk of coal.[/QUOTE]
James, that would make you a diamond in the rough!!

I made one with an extreme wedge years ago after seeing the pic of
Cumpiano's wedge. The only difficulty (as I remember it) is the binding
has to do some drastic twisting in order to fit tight.

Most wedges I see lately are more like only 1/2 inch to maybe 1 inch
different from side to side. I do this on alot of my guitars. It just makes
them easier to play I think.

Check out Linda Manzer's website to see the real deal.

longBob Long39097.8879166667

_________________
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.” -Heraclitus of Ephesus

Lets start with a history lesson. Linda came up with the Wedge in 1984; Bill purloined it and still hasn't fessed up.

If you are going to use this feature, please do Linda the courtesy of asking her permission for using it as well as giving credit where credit is due.

David is right here.

Linda certainly doesn't mind people making wedge guitars, she would just like the credit for the idea.

Now, if you want a ton of pictures of the wedge being built, take a look at Dennis Scannell's website at True North Guitars. He calls it a compound-side tapered body, but it's a wedge. He gives a very very brief "thanks" to Manzer but also to Cumpiano.

Anyway, take a look at the in the shop and in progress pictures, you should be able to get everything you need from there.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I've done one body like that, and it's pretty easy with a dish: take untapered, bent rim set, and support on a dish. Say you want an end to end taper of 1", and a side to side taper (wedge) of 1". Prop up the head end with a 2" block, tail end with a 1" block (you've now got 1" end to end taper), and then prop up the bass side so the difference between bass and treble sides is 1" as well.

EDIT: or look at the True North webside, and use wedges. That'll work too.

Then you mark off the sides, using something to keep your pencil at a constant distance from the dish (ie, take a piece of scrap, drill a hole in it for the pencil, mark around the edges). Trim off the excess with the tools of your choice (I like a mini japanese saw followed by a block plane), and when you're within about 1/8", use the radius dish.

Linda _______


Fill in the blank please.


Thanks,

Graham,

Linda Manzer. She is another Larrivee protege and has built most if not all of Pat Methany's guitars, including Picasso, if you like off the wall and cool harps! She builds incredible guitars and uses a similiar bracing pattern to Laskin that is indeed based on Larrivee's symetrical design, Tony Karol uses it and my first is also the same.

Shane

_________________
Canada

Unless you are making an "exact copy" of the guitar Linda Mazner made {or so very very close as to be indistiguishable}
I dont really think its essential to ask permission, I doubt people making F5's contact Loyd Loars grandson, or hier, before building one,
and I doubt the L-00 models we have seen recently were precipitated with a letter to Gibson asking permission first,
Or every Martin clone, starts with permission from C.F.Martin and Co
or every armrest starts with a letter to Grit Laskin? or Kevin Ryan etc etc
Although I agree credit should definitely be given where it is due, without exception!
asking permission is a tad extreme I think, or mabye just political correctness taken to the Nth degree.
The entire game of luthiery has been to copy the work of the luthier you most admire, and adding your improvement or personal touch, this going back literally centuries. Do what you feel you must though!
Cheers
Charliewood

No, it's not essential to ask permission of Manzer, Laskin, or the others
whose creativity, skill, and willingness to share make lutherie the
exception in this competitive and litigious world. They have been happy
to share their ideas and techniques selflessly with all of us, just as the
users of this forum are.

It's important thing to keep in mind that lutherie is largely a community
of individuals, not faceless corporations. It's about personal relationships
rather than legal confrontations.

The truly innovative builders ask only for recognition when their ideas are
copied by us, the less talented builders. It's not a big deal to write a note
thanking them for their contribution and giving credit when we profit
from their work. Doing so isn't "political correctness taken to the Nth
degree," it's simply the polite and respectful thing one does for one's
friends.

Rick Davis
Running Dog Guitars

Good points, Rick!

Man...do I have a lot of letters to write. I believe that everything I've learned in the past 4 years came from someone on this forum or MIMF. Actually, I always try to acknowledge the source of good info... we all should continue to be thankful for such a great guild of kind and sharing brethern.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=Rick Davis]The truly innovative builders ask only for recognition when their ideas are
copied by us, the less talented builders.[/QUOTE]

Umm...Rick, if I may be so bold, there's an error in your statement. You're not amongst the "less talented builders". I've seen your work...it's up there with the best of them.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Thanks, Don, but I was referring to the creativity and innovation that comes
with years of dedicated pursuit of excellence. That's rare in any field and
worthy of deep respect. Linda and Grit are among a very small, select group
in that regard and I honor them for it.

But I'll take your compliment anyhow!

Rick

Good points Rick and everyone else,
you are certainly right!
It certainly is more than kind of Linda, Grit, and quite a number of other Master Luthiers to share so openly the personal touch aspects of thier fine instruments. I am grateful to no end!
This is especially true when you consider how quickly information is disseminated {and absorbed} these days, via the internet, videos, books, schools, etc etc.
There was a discussion recently about explosion of luthiers that is happening now, how much more quickly people can learn the art of luthiery,
this is due in no small part to the willingness of the cream of the crop of luthiery sharing thier wealth of knowledge.
I think it certainly would be an excellent opportunity to contact a luthier as talented as Linda Mazner, and your right although its not essential, it is a sign of repsect, and not altogether unwarranted.
I guess I sort of misread the posts above my previous post, and I was under the impression that was being put forth was
"if you build that style of instrument, youd better have permission".
But I can see it was presented as more of a gesture,
a token of respect toward the innovator
That I can totally get with.
And I apologize if I sounded arrogant, or defensive - it really wasnt meant like that.
Cheers
Charliewood

I've toyed with the idea of getting a wedge shaped instrument. If you don't mind keeping me in the loop, I'd be very interested in hearing how this build goes. Bursitis in both shoulders and cubital tunnel syndrome in both arms combined with a touch of arthritis at 27 makes a D-28 a very uncomfortable guitar. It's only because of Lance's very comfortable E-2 that I'm still playing as much as I do!

Once again I am humbled by the knowledge and generosity of all you forum folks,And appreciate all your help.I never had any idea about wedges until my nephew asked me to build him one.He`s had some physical injuries and says he can`t play a normal guitar for more than 10 minutes at a time.As far as giving credit where credit is due,I`m for it.But trust me I`m not even close to being in their league,And I never would have considered building a wedge if it wasn`t for my nephew.Hope I didn`t open a can of worms.
                            James

_________________
James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

I can't really see the advantage of the wedge shape, though I've never played one.
I know I'm losing flexibility in my wrists as I get older, but it seems to me that the wedge will require more 'twisting' of my left wrist in order to play properly. Certainly turning my guitar in that way makes it more difficult to play and I get a tired left hand and wrist quite quickly.
Can somebody clue me in on this?
Thanks
John

[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie] I can't really see the advantage of the wedge shape, though I've never played one.
I know I'm losing flexibility in my wrists as I get older, but it seems to me that the wedge will require more 'twisting' of my left wrist in order to play properly. Certainly turning my guitar in that way makes it more difficult to play and I get a tired left hand and wrist quite quickly.
Can somebody clue me in on this?
Thanks
John

[/QUOTE]

John, i'm not a doctor but what you describe in your post has all the ingredients of carpal tunnel syndrome, IIRC, Michael Payne suffers from it, i'm sure others too, myself included, sadly, it would need an operation.

[QUOTE=Serge Poirier]
John, i'm not a doctor but what you describe in your post has all the ingredients of carpal tunnel syndrome, IIRC, Michael Payne suffers from it, i'm sure others too, myself included, sadly, it would need an operation. [/QUOTE]
Thanks, Serge. Actually carpal tunnel is one problem I don't have. If you have one of the old spring-type 'grip strength' exercisers, you can do a quick experiment to see the effect of wrist bending. Squeeze the exerciser, then flex (bend) your wrist toward your body. The effect is dramatic.
The wedge will require more wrist bending.

I was watching another 'old guy' (Willie Nelson) playing guitar (if you can call it that!) on TV last night. He actually tilts the upper edge of his guitar (Trigger) away from his body when playing.
I always associate turning the guitar toward the body ( to 'see the fingerboard' ?) with beginner players .

For me, the 'armrest' makes more sense, but it's so darn ugly that I'm not much interested.
John

James, I built two SJ's with a wedge, tapering about 1" thinner on the bass side. The only real problem was binding it. It is easier to bind a guitar without the wedge, but it isn't much more difficult. You can ask Linda Manzer for advice on this too - she is really great about offering her insights.

Ray

In the words of the great Pablo Picasso "A good artist copies ideas, a great artist outright steals them!" (or something to that effect) Fortuneately in the lutherie world it isn't necessary.

Asking permission is great advice for the reasons Rick, Brock and others mentioned and sometimes it pays huge dividends.

I've just finished an archtop that uses a tailpiece design that is a very close approximation to Tom Ribbecke's. I sent him an email asking if I could use his design. Not only did he gratiously say yes, his response included a number of unsolicitated helpful ideas. Great guy!

Grit Laskin is okay with folks using his armrest. All that he asks is that you send him a picture of the completed instrument.

I am struggling with the ergonomic benefits of building a wedge shaped guitar. An armrest or armrest/ribrest makes a lot of sense.

John, thanks for the tip on CTS, i will try to find me some exercisers.

What has fomented the community within the luthier circles in the past (read pre-internet) was a willingness to share as well as the respect to ask before taking and give credit where credit is due. Yea, folks, there is no legal reason that you MUST ask permission and give credit.

However....as a number of us discussed in a rather large gathering of luthiers after finishing the last day of Newport, what is your problem with giving credit, or having the courtesy to ask permission to borrow an idea that is not your own? The rewards are far greater than you imagine. In the former, you borrow and pass off concepts that you didn't come up with; in the latter by asking permission and giving due credit YOU TAKE GREATER OWNERSHIP OF THE WORK THAT IS YOURS.

There have been perhaps five or so real innovations in the past 100 years in of acoustic guitarmaking:

-The Martin X-Brace
-Taylor's NT Neck system
-Linda Manzer's Wedge
-Tom Humphries Millenium angled top guitar
-Grit Laskin's (and perhaps Serge de Jonge's) armrest
-Kevin Ryan's adaptation of the armrest

This is a VERY select group. Most of us, me included, use concepts developed by others. If you're interested in continuing the sharing of concepts then it is imperative that you have the courtesy to ask before taking and give credit where credit is due.

I have always had a page on my website explaining the history of Linda's wedge and that I have her permission to use it. It takes nothing away from me and gives a well earned tip of the hat to an artisan of incredible creativity.

Funny isn't it how people 'invent' things. There are 19th century guitars in the RCM and Horniman museums that are narrower on the bass side, I suppose you'd call them wedges. They may just have been builder errors who knows . There are even assymetric lutes. Almost nothing is new, they all having historical precedents in one form or another.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I once asked Mark Blanchard if I could copy his rosette for a personal guitar, To this day its still my favorite design. He said "Id rather you didn't", instead he offered me the best advise any guitar builder has ever given me. He said, "Don't just copy my rosette, use it as inspiration to create your own."

I take that advise with me and use it constantly as I build more and more guitars continually searching for that "look" that Mark has captured so well with his guitars. Not Marks look, but my own.

I understand the "wedge" is a different type of appointment compared to my rosette story, I also agree that asking permission and giving credit where credit is due is a good thing.
But Marks advise certainly does overlap here some with regards to copying others.

Thanks Mark!

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com