Official Luthiers Forum!

   I had the flu the last week and got behind but wanted to update all that were asking about the Williams Binding jig. I have started the jigging process and will be producing 2 styles.
    The one style is pretty much stock. The 2nd style I am making takes the turntable off the bench and sets it on top of the riser . In my shop this makes more sense to clamping down to a table. Let me know what you guys think.
   I should have them ready within the next month as I am still hammering down a supplier for some parts.

I would love one but doubt I could afford it anytime soon,
Good stuff on offering though John! Luckily someone will ahve a steady supply of them. They are pretty superior jigs from what I have seen - just amazing,
Cheers
Charliewood

depending on the amount of play in the lazy susan, having the circular action take place higher up will require less force since you will be moving less wood around.

The effort needed to move a bearing set like that is so little, that I doubt you'll ever notice... mine is almost effortless.
From a cost standpoint, you can use less materials with the smaller top-loaded bearing set though, and the bearing should be cheaper.Don Williams39111.6442476852

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I can give mine a very gentle push, and it'll make several revolutions before gently gliding to a halt. Like Don said, it's not really noticeable...if built well.

Bill Greene39111.656400463

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Looking forward to seeing the finished product

Mike

thanks for the input
john

not sure if I follow~but you'll still have to clamp it down. You extend that arm out all the way and you've got a massive tipping problem.

Just finished building mine can't wait to use it. Although, It takes up more room than the other "tower" style where you move the guitar around the fixture. If I ever start getting crammed for space, I will probably make the other one, or get a laminated trimmer mounted jobbie but they're $$$$$$.

Hope you're feeling better John, and that Brenda didn't (doesn't) catch it too. Say hi for me

TAS

    Moving the rotational support from the base to the top makes clamping easer. That is the point I think I am trying to make. I liked Sylvans but few can make a descreet binding area. I will be posting pix once I have them ready.
     Keep the pinkies out of the blades LOL
Feeling better now thanks . SO far Brenda is fine except maybe here taste in men , she did after all pick me LOL
john

John, I've just finished building one and I made a couple of modifications to it (which I'd show you if I could post pictures ) The first is that I made the wood on the top of the large lazy susan round so that I could bolt the unit down to my bench using bolts and wing nuts. The base piece is square so that the bolts can go through the four corners. This solves the clamping problem without having to relocate the bearing.

The second modification I made was that I used threaded inserts and bolts to hold together the main sections. Basically the central box to the slide section and the central box to the lazy susan section. This means it is easy to break down into three parts for storage. Those only building 2 or 3 guitars a year only want the thing set up for a few days each year and being able to break it down into smaller elements makes finding somewhere to store it a whole lot easier.

I also made Dave White's modification of a second lazy susan on the trimmer mount so that can use a trimmer with guide wheel and downcut bit.

ColinColin S39112.7360532407

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I've been working on an idea for a wall mount for the jig, thereby eliminating the base part entirely. It would just swing out of the way up against the wall until you need it that way.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Don Williams] I've been working on an idea for a wall mount for the jig, thereby eliminating the base part entirely. It would just swing out of the way up against the wall until you need it that way.[/QUOTE]

Don, I saw one like that somewhere. Maybe it was on the LINT website?

_________________
Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

Here is Jim Olsons very very nice binding jig arm. I want one of these puppies.



Jim, put some safty glasses on please. We need you around with good eyesight for many more years to come.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Dave kindly offered to host these shots of my new Williams jig.



As you can see the round top section for the main lazy susan allows me to use bolts and wingnuts to make temporary attachement to the bench easier. Also I used scew inserts and bolts to make it easy to take apart into its main components for storage.



This is the most important part of the jig, Dave Whites modification of the trimmer mount. As you can see it uses a second smaller lazy susan that the trimmer is mounted on. This allows the use of the trimmer's bearing guide and a downcut bit.







As I said in a previous post we are lucky that Harry Fleishman, Don Williams and Dave White are generous in sharing their inventions with us.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=ToddStock] Colin:

I've been thinking of various methods to eliminate the task of mantaining the orientation of the bit and bearing line normal to a tangent line to the local side.

Is this really an issue on the design, and have you looked at the maximum error introduced by your achieved level of precision in maintaining the correct orientation? I'm not willing to invest time in fixing a non-problem.

Todd[/QUOTE]

Todd,

I'm afraid I don't fully follow your second paragraph. I think you are making the point that the bit and bearing guide aren't in a line perpendicular to the top.

The problem I was trying to fix was that I wanted the freedom to use a downcut router bit and to set for any width/depth of binding/purfling cut I wanted with that bit - and to be able to keep the donut as close as possible to the edge with the router (bit and following guide) in line with the tangent of the side everywhere but in particular to cope with the effects of the back/side arch around the waist and upper/lower bout curves. Having the lam trimmer able to swivel was the solution that occured to me. I've been using it for over a year now and provided I have the sides perpedicular all the way round I can get a perfect cut in one pass. I don't usually manage to get the sides perpindicular every where so it ususally takes another pass in some areas after adjusting the side angle.

I certainly agree though if there is no problem then don't fix it

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

What Dave said, his modification, by using the second lazy susan to allow the trimmer to rotate on its axis, means that you can use the trimmers guide bearing rather than have one on the router bit. This means you can rout to any exact depth you want for any purfling/binding scheme. Without this modification you have to use one of the Stew Mac/LMI router bit/bearing combinations. With it, you can use a downcut spiral bit, as the trimmer can be rotated to keep the bearing running along the side. It is a very elegant solution.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

   I hate those adjustable guides. I am like Sylvan with the set of bearing bits. It makes thing so much easier and you know exactly what you have. Also I will be using the same design on the donut that sylvan used. It just makes sense , it is simple and allows to take another variable out of the equation.
    As for moving the turntable , the stress is less with the table higher so there are less chance of slop developing overtime. Then the riser can be made into a little storage box for the cutter bits. Sylvan's use of space and originazation was outstanding.
   A wall mount can be offered for those that want one.
John Hall
blues creek Guitars

[QUOTE=tippie53] ...A wall mount can be offered for those that want one.
[/QUOTE]

Copy-cat!!!!!!

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

    That is the key. With the piloting fixture , if you are not perfectly tanget to the pilot bearing with the cutter as you route, the depth of cut with vary as to the postion along the radius. It is most difficult to get the pilot center on all cuts as the pilot is a static dimension and the depth of cut will place the center of the cutter and the center of the pilot at different loctions thus the cut is most difficult to control with the pilot fixture bearing
With the bearing cutter they are on perfect center so you are tangent to the bearing in 360 degrees and that is no longer a part of the equation. I am hoping to be able to so a demo of this when I have my open house.
     It will be as informal as we were at Sylvans and I hope as much fun
john hall tippie5339113.5543981481

[QUOTE=ToddStock] In other words...is it tough to get perfectly uniform channel width when you have to control the orientation of the router versus the body?[/QUOTE]

Todd,

No - that's not what I said at all if you mean my reply. Go and read what I said again - or maybe I didn't explain it very well. I said if the sides weren't at 90 degrees to the horizontal plane I had to set them right and re-pass. I'd have to use exactly the same procedure with a bearing bit. Keeping the bit/guide in the same alignment as you go round the sides is the whole point of the second lazy susan bearing and it's a piece of p**s to do that.

[QUOTE=Tippie53] I hate those adjustable guides.[/QUOTE]

John,

You hate them, I love them. There is plenty of room in the world for both of us.Dave White39113.5757060185

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

[QUOTE=Dave White]You hate them, I love them. There is plenty of room in the world for both of us.[/QUOTE]
Get ready to RUUMMMBAAAAAL!!!
Actually, these are all helpful ideas for those of us trying to find what will work best for us.

BTW, a possible solution for the space problem for this jig might be to build a small-surface table on lockable casters. You could store it in a corner and wheel it up to your bench or table when needed. The problem with this might be stability, if the jig makes it too top-heavy. Comments? CarltonM39113.6794675926

Carlton, the storage problem for small shops (mine) is why I have mine able to be broken down easily by using inserts and bolts rather than screws.

Also, I'm with Dave on the bearing bits, I like the router pilot and dislike the bit mounted bearing. We had a thread on this some time ago, when a channel was being made all the way round on someones sides because the bearing was rotating with the bit and marking the side. I had this a few years ago when the router dust got into the bearing (brand new from a well known source)and made it bind on the bit and with the bearing revolving at 30000rpm it burnt the sides on the best piece of European maple I have ever seen. I also don't want to be phaffing around wrapping tape on a bearing to get the size I want, when I can just turn an adjuster. I also much prefer the finish on the channel from the downcut spiral bit. My bit and bearing set went into the trash.

I guess we'll all just have to disagree on this one.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=Colin S] Carlton, the storage problem for small shops (mine) is why I have mine able to be broken down easily by using inserts and bolts rather than screws.
[/QUOTE]
Yep, I saw that. I guess I should have written, "Another possible...." I was just trying to think of a way to keep everthing assembled, but out of the way in a small shop.

    You are right in that it is why we have white and black paint. I can have a guitar bound in less than an hour using the bearings. They are more accurate but like any tool you do need to do some maitenence.
    I use tape on my sides for the initial pass , then I can remove the tape for a final .010 clean out cut. Also if the bearing is spinning the tape lets me know fast. The are more accurate but if you like using the pilot bearing please , keep using them. I did use them and I just threw mine out. I still have one I use for violin perfling but that is all.
     The important thing I can say here is for anyone , find a system that you like and feel confident in. That is all that matters. Opinions here are worth what you pay for them . No hard feelings to anyone just my opinion
john
PS I still hate them but not the people that like them.