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Update...Zpoxy as a finish
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10627		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:02 am ]
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Well, after applying the ZP 2 weeks ago, I began the leveling and wet sanding process. It wasn't long before I realized that this was not meeting my expectations.

The first problem I recognized is that my application method of using a card spreader was lacking in achieving a uniform coating, pareticularly on the sides. This resulted in a few spots of sand-throughs while leveling with dry sanding. I'll try brushing next time.

So I concentrated on half of the back beginning with wet/dry 400 grit in soapy water. While ZP is not soluble in water, it nonetheless seems to soften considerably and produce mud when sanded. This loads up the paper immediately and requires changing much more frequently than when sanding Nitro. I continued on by cleaning the slurry frequently with a damp sponge and drying with a paper towel. After fighting this with 400 for half of the back I was able to get a smooth surface before moving on to 600 grit.

So I continued with 600 grit and it only got more difficult to sand when I realized that I would not want to go through such an effort on a regular basis and abandoned the experiment. This decision was mainly due to time pressure and the need to re-do the sides. Since I'm in a bit of a hurry to complete this guitar for my godson, I decided to remove the ZP and french polish it.

Later, I thought that I should have considered trying Naphtha instead of water to see if it would have provided a better sanding lubricant. Unfortunately, it will have to wait for a later day now...a good project for me to resume during the dry winter months now upon us.

Sorry to have not produced better results but such is the nature of hare-brained ideas. Sometimes they work, but more often they lead to further trials...in this case, more thinking and effort is needed to fully explore the idea.

In the meantime, I'm loving the FP method and the results after 4 guitars now are very pleasing. Thanks, Robbie!

Author:  Pwoolson [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:08 am ]
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JJ, in the future you might try some soap in your water. I use Murphy's oil soap and I know dish soap works well too.
Author:  Dave White [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:11 am ]
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JJ

Thanks for the feedback. As you say if you don't try, you don't know and you were sort of in a win-win situation anyway. The FP will look great.

I've polished out Z-Poxy with OOOO wire wool to a finish that looks a bit like the rubbed-out lacquer finish of Lowdens. It looks good but I had 2 main reservations. First if you put your fingers on it, the marks don't go away as quick as with a laquer finish and I suspect it would be hard to keep clean. Secondly I would worry about the long term impact of UV on it. I does make a fantastic base for other finishes to go on and I find that I can get away with fewer lacquer coats with the Z-poxy as a base. I also am beginning to think that the Z-poxy helps tonally. I used it on the Sapele top of my Weiss with pre-cat laquer on top and that thing rings sustains and roars beautifully.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:24 am ]
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Paul...I did in fact use soapy water. I started with the same technique as has been successful with my Nitro experience.

Dave...Once I started this, I realized that the effort was going to be more extensive than with FP. That fact also contributed to my conclusion to abort the trial. I continue to be positive about ZP as a pore filler and base coat.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:20 am ]
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So JJ, will you tell your godson certain precautions to take with a french polished guitar? Or will you simply touch it up for him when he needs the repair--no questions (or comments)?
I guess my question relates to my own uncertainty about that type finish. I'd love to do it, I think it looks wonderful, but I'm leery of the cavalier attitude out there about the proper treatment of a polished instrument... especially in steel string circles.

By the way, how's it coming?

Steve
Author:  Anthony Z [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:24 am ]
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JJ sorry to hear the Z-poxy wasn't to your satisfaction.

JJ a question if I may, your last post states that you are "positive about ZP as a pore filler and base coat". I take it you don't sand back to bare wood (with Z poxy in the pores only)?
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:52 am ]
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Steve...Andj (my godson) has already been "informed and instructed" as to its care and feeding. I'm sure he won't be as diligent as I have been with the WFB that I peviously did but he knows I'll be watching!

I really love the look and feel of FP. The only maintenance I've had to do so far is to sand and redo the neck surface after playing wear...but I'm more diligent than most, I'm sure. At the risk of sounding snobby, I look at the more durable finishes and just see a plastic-dipped guitar. They look so thick by comparison and that has to have an effect on the sound response. On the other hand, my guitars are for my own personal use and I don't have to be concerned about a customer's preference.

Anthony...For the last 6 guitars, I have actually left a thin layer of ZP on backs & sides prior to applying finish. I consider it more than just a pore filler. I like the grain enhancement, smoothness and leveling effect it provides as a base.
Author:  Alain Desforges [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:45 am ]
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For sure the effort is commendable, my friend. Congrats for trying!
Author:  James W B [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:44 am ]
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So JJ ,do you still use ZP to pore fill before french polish?
                James W B
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:05 pm ]
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James...I use ZP for pore filling as well as a base on backs & sides prior to starting the FP process.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:49 pm ]
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Thanks, JJ.I hear ya, and that plastic-dipped-look is also a pain to pull off.
Now---you mentioned the use of ZP as a base on sides/back. What about the top? Do you use anything there...perhaps as Joshua recommends, an egg white size?

Steve
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:32 pm ]
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Steve...I used a very light wash of ZP on one top mainly for the color. While it smoothed out the surface and provided the vintage look I was after, I'm reluctant to continue its use due to the unknown effect of dampening. On the others, I just apply a few sealing coats of 1# shellac before starting the FP process per Robbie's method. The egg white sizing sounds like a good idea. Thanks for the reminder!

One thing I've noticed about the tops compared to the B&S... the darker wood seems to shine up much better. I'll be buffing out the surfaces next week...that always takes it up a few notches.
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:34 pm ]
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Wayto go JJ! that sure is an idea i could have been tempted to try out, you've got cajhones JJ!

Thanks for the update bro!
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:54 am ]
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Thanks, JJ. Oh, and one more question for you. (Sorry to keep pestering you like this!   ) When you mentioned a "very light wash coat" of ZP, did you thin it out w/ alchohol, or just go straight?


SteveSteve Kinnaird39113.5809490741
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:42 am ]
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Steve...you couldn't possibly pester me too much! After all these years of hanging on every word of K-Bro posts, I'm happy to reciprocate in any small way I can.

I used a slightly thinned solution (3 parts ZP : 1 part ETOH)...not the 1:1 solution that we typically use as a final coat on B&S. Then I used a card and a FP-type pad to evenly spread it around. Next day, I scraped and sanded (400 grit) until smooth and uniform. This is as light as I would go for fear of sanding through.

I've only done this on 1 top (Adi) but Robbie may have more experience. Perhaps he'll chime in.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:32 pm ]
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JJ, you're too kind--as is your wont.
Thanks for the info. One of these days I'm really going to try the ZP. I got a batch of it from Paul W a while back, tried it once, and haven't used it since.
I'm pretty sure I wasn't holding my mouth just right.
Or maybe it was dirty socks. You know....

Thanks again,
Steve
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