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What constitutes mastergrade Ital. spruce
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10710		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Eric [ Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:19 pm ]
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Hi, I was referred here from the guitar seminar forum, I hope I have come to the right place. I had a question for luthiers I was hoping to get answered: I have three days to decide on a new, expensive guitar from a very reputable builder. The top grain is fairly wide but there is "silking" literally everywhere. I have a German spruce topped guitar that has very tight grain but not near as much silking. I don't have a clue what constitutes a "mastergrade" Italian spruce top but the guitar is definitely priced in the mastergrade category; I would be grateful if one of the luthiers here could tell me. Does the grain width matter in Italian spruce? Thanks, Eric
Author:  Jim Watts [ Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:35 pm ]
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Eric, IMO grain spacing is over rated, I would rather have really great medullary rays (silking) than very tight grain. Silking is a strong indicator of how well the top is cut.
Good luck.
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:42 pm ]
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Eric, I'm currently building an OM with what I consider exceptional Italian spruce, don't forget it's exactly the same species as the German Spruce, Picea abies, just grown in a different place, which can inflence growth rates etc. The top I'm using goes from about 20 to 30 lines per inch but is covered in silking over the whole top. A truly mastergrade, and I don't like the term, piece of Italian spruce would be about as good as top wood gets, but the same could be said for German, Swiss, Austrian, Carpathian and all the other named selections of European Spruce. But wood can vary enormously and any judgement can only be made from the actual individual piece of wood.

Colin
Author:  Eric [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:51 am ]
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Thanks Jim and Colin, that is helpful. It hadn't occurred to me to count the lines per inch--there are roughly 14 lines per inch pretty much across the entire top. Eric
Author:  rlabbe [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:06 am ]
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Recognize that these terms don't mean squat. They are not an indicator of acoustic quality. A reputable dealer won't sell an acoustically dead piece of wood. All the rating mean, pretty much, is how rare and pretty the piece is.

For example, it's hard to find spruce wood with even grain, so that get's priced higher than pieces where it varies. On the other hand, on something like Brazilian, wild lines are hard to find, so that is priced higher. Straight lines are generally prized in top wood, as is low run out but show somebody a piece of flamed redwood, which is not straightgrained and has huge run out, and people will pay 2x to 3x the price for it.

And it's totally subjective. One builder (and yes, I said builder, not supplier) will rate a piece 3A, another will rate that piece 4A, another call it master grade, and another will toss it in the wood stove.

It's all nonsense. Forget about it, really. Just play the guitar. Do you like it at the price? Yes, then get it, no, then don't.

If you don't trust the luthier, so that you have to come and ask perfect strangers to second guess him/her, well, either don't get the guitar or recognize that maybe you shouldn't be second guessing them.
You'll drive yourself crazy otherwise, because even if you show people the guitar, different people will rate the wood at different levels. And all those levels mean are "I, supplier X, am asking $xxx for this piece of wood". That is truly all master grade means (vs 3A or whatever).

Author:  crazymanmichael [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:10 am ]
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you can look at a piece of wood, count grain lines, observe all of its visual characteristics, but they can't guarantee you the one criteria which true mastergrade wood, regardless of species, must have, i.e., stiffness. i, as well as anyone else who has been at this for a while, have seen absolutely beautiful looking tops with close, even grain, uniform colour, devoid of pitch pockets, exhibiting fantastic silk, and they have been dogs because they just aren't stiff.

as was pointed out above, there is no way you can tell where the wood came from, or even what species it is just by looking at it. it gets down to a matter of your trust in the luthier to use what he says he uses. and the sound, which is the ultimate test criterion you should use. after all it is the sound you are paying for, not the wood species.
Author:  Pwoolson [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:42 am ]
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I find the term "master grade" to be thrown around a lot and it really doesn't mean a thing. There are some wood dealers out there that sell A, AA and master grade. Well to jump from AA to "master Grade" is quite a leap in my opinion. Most of the guys I deal with don't even offer a "master grade" as their wood is graded as A, AA, AAA, AAAA and so on.
The term "master grade" is all marketing as there is no set rule of how a top becomes "master grade".
Author:  jfrench [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:55 am ]
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I agree with everyone here, especially rlabb.

I'll only add that when a wood supplier sells something as "Master Grade" they are usually relying too much on the wood's aesthetic qualities, which are really the last criteria I would consider before selecting the piece.
Author:  McCollum [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:10 am ]
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Master grade probably means somebody paid too much

The only way I would consider a piece of Italian Spruce to be Master Grade would be to have a very tight grain width consistent in size and completely across the top and no bearclaw. Which, with Italian, finding stuff without bearclaw is really hard. And the only people I will save these tops for are the Japanese. They like as clean a top as possible. But even they are realizing great sounding woods are more important than those with perfect aesthetics.

Lance
Author:  novab350 [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:29 am ]
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I not too long ago bought an englemann billet as bracewood.  The grain was on the wide side (7-10 rpi) and was a little wiggley.  However, as I started to cut some bracestock out of it I was tapping it and realized it rang like a bell.  I cut the rest of the billet into tops and have made one guitar out of it so far.  It may not be what many consider to be high grade wood, but the guitar sounds better than ones I have made with 3A or 4A wood.  I would agree that cosmetics (which so much wood is rated on) is not always and accurate indicator of acoustic properties.  If you like the way the guitar sounds that is more important than how wide the grain lines are on the soundboard.


Nate
Author:  Daniel M [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:53 am ]
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I agree with most of what has been said above.
(IMHO)... If you are looking for visual clues of how a top is likely to sound, silk is the best indicator.
If the silking is strong & even across the entire board, you know you have the two most important qualities of a fine piece of tonewood.
Grain runout (which is most often an indication that the tree grew with a twist) will show in the silk. There will be bands of silky wood & areas where the silk is less visible or non existent. Runout will cause the top to be less than optimally stiff... with extreme runout, you will see a distinct colour shift at the centre glue line.
One side of the top will appear darker than the other.
The other main reason for a lack of medullary rays is that the top was sawn off quarter. Because the cells causing the rays run radially outward from the centre of the tree, just a few degrees of deviation from perfect vertical grain will affect the visible silk.
Again, stiffness is affected.
I have found that grain spacing is irrelevant to top stiffness. Perfectly quartered cedar which has very fine grain is often considerably less stiff than wider grained wood. I have cut lots of lovely old growth cedar which had 60+ grains to the inch, which turned out quite floppy in spite of being perfectly quartered & having almost zero runout. I don't know if the same applies to Spruce, but I suspect it would.
Sorry to get so long winded here... The bottom line surely is... Did you fall in love with the guitar? Does it have the sound & playability you desire for your playing style? Does the builder offer a good warrantee?
Good luck & happy playing!
Author:  Don Williams [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:20 am ]
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Master Grade (specifically as it relates to tops) has to have all the qualities that builders and customers want:

Aesthetics
Even grain spacing (preferably tight), and very uniform color. Heavy medullary rays/silk.

Tonal Properties
It has to be very stiff, with little to no runout, and it has to ring like a bell when tapped.

If any of these characteristics is missing or not the best that can be found, it should be downgraded.

Now all that said, it's very difficult to obtain that stuff, and there are a lot of tops etc. that are sold as lesser grade primarily due to the cosmetics. Once we can educate customers to this truth, life will be easier for us, because they won't always demand the prettiest tops, which cost us more, but don't do anything special for the sound. In reality, the grain spacing doesn't always indicate how good the top is, nor does the color.
Trusting a luthier to choose woods that are appropriate for the build is important too, and coaxing the best sound out of a great top may not happen from a luthier who doesn't fully understand what to do with it. In reality, it comes down to the builder's hands, and judgement as to how it will sound in the end.

Choose rather the builder, and type of material for it's general characteristics rather than the cosmetics of a specific piece of wood. You will be happier in the end.

Author:  Shawn [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:02 am ]
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I have used tops that had very wide grain that were very stiff and others with very fine grain that were not stiff.

Even though silking is a good indicator that the wood is well quartersawn, it is only one of the factors that make a great top. Consistency of stiffness can also contribute to the overall sound profile that can affect the harmonic modes that focus the sound.

I know a number of classical guitar builders who will not use tops in which the grain is too close and prefer even medium grain as the consistency of stiffness versus flexibility is easier to determine and the sound more predictable.
Author:  Eric [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:54 am ]
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Thanks everyone for the help. Hesh, I just did buy the guitar based on being educated by you guys--the sound was wonderful, but the top does have some run out, wider grained, and only medium silking. This guitar is to be used live mainly so I am probably less picky than a purely living room player; my biggest concern was resale value. I know guys that don't have a clue (as I did not have a clue) about what makes a top-notched guitar, and frankly, I don't always trust my ears. If it looks beautiful, it must sound beautiful, but as I know now that is certainly not the case; nevertheless, having sold many guitars I know it matters to people buying it and I now consider that into the equation. Another factor is there are only a few places that sell these types of guitars, and there certainly are none where I live in Florida. So, a picture and a sound clip is all I have to go on. You really can't photograph silking easily (your picture above is better than most I have seen) so sensational adjectives are used and every time I get a guitar I am a little disappointed. I always end up buying what sounds good. I returned a very beautiful hand-built (and expensive) guitar that sounded bad; I don't know why it sounded bad, my wife said it sounded great, just like my National tricone--like I said, I returned it. Thanks again. Eric
Author:  Don Williams [ Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:13 am ]
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One man's dung is another man's dream...
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:07 am ]
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[QUOTE=rlabbe]
On the other hand, on something like Brazilian, wild lines are hard to find, so that is priced higher. Straight lines are generally prized in top wood, as is low run out but show somebody a piece of flamed redwood, which is not straightgrained and has huge run out, and people will pay 2x to 3x the price for it.


[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything that has been said, pretty much, except for this. It's easy to find wild grained Brazilian, and those who think it is premium wood are mistaken. I've seen less-than-reputable dealers hype it that way, but me and pretty much all the builders I know who use BR won't use it. The best grade of Brazilian is straight grained and quartersawn, and that is what is very hard to find. As for curly top woods, it may be true that some people pay a premium for it, but I won't use it until someone convinces me that maximizing runout is good for a top. I don't expect that to ever happen.

BTW, Hesh, I think that top is at most AA; not close to AAA. The issues are cosmetic, as with most topwood grading, but it has way too much color changes and variation in grain spacing to be AAA.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:30 am ]
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I agree with Howard. The wild grain BRW is popular only because that's whats readily available and the reputation of BRW as a great tone wood. This however is not the wood the reputation of BRW was built from, that wood was straight grained and that wood is pretty much long gone. The problem I see with the available BRW is really an issue of its lack of stability. I believe that alot of this wood comes from old stumps and this wood is not as stable as straight grained quarter sawn wood. I might be wrong on the source of stumps, please correct me if I am.
I'm sure however that great guitars are being made from the readily available BRW just as they are being made from EIR, Ziricote, Koa, Mahogany, other rose woods, (insert your favorite wood here).
Author:  CMick [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:25 am ]
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In the last few months I've bought 5 sets of Italian Alpine from LMI. Three sets were AAA, Two sets were mastergrade. The wood is still on the wood pile, so no Italian Alpine guitars yet. The wood all looks about the same (nice), One of the AAA sets has a big bookmatched sap pockets, but the fingerboard will cover it up. Both master grade sets and one of the AAA sets are very stiff and light. When I tap them, there is a long sustained vibration. They ring longer than anything else on the pile and sound very musical.
The other two AAA sets are not as stiff. The wood reminds me of the Carpathian I've seen, but with higher grain counts.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:20 am ]
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[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] It's easy to find wild grained Brazilian, and those who think it is premium wood are mistaken. [...snip for brevity...] The best grade of Brazilian is straight grained and quartersawn, and that is what is very hard to find.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, I agree. But you know what the tragedy is? Some of this has seeped into the player world. Everytime someone talks (seriously) about a brw guitar they never go for the nice straight grain sets. This set has never ONCE been short listed. What a shame.

Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:58 pm ]
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Well, you know where you can go to dispose of that set.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:09 am ]
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[QUOTE=Colin S] Eric, I'm currently building an OM with what I consider exceptional Italian spruce, don't forget it's exactly the same species as the German Spruce, Picea abies, just grown in a different place, which can inflence growth rates etc. The top I'm using goes from about 20 to 30 lines per inch but is covered in silking over the whole top. A truly mastergrade, and I don't like the term, piece of Italian spruce would be about as good as top wood gets, but the same could be said for German, Swiss, Austrian, Carpathian and all the other named selections of European Spruce. But wood can vary enormously and any judgement can only be made from the actual individual piece of wood.

Colin[/QUOTE]

+1.

Not much else to add, really; most sellers grade on aesthetics rather than anything else.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:13 am ]
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[QUOTE=McCollum] Master grade probably means somebody paid too much

The only way I would consider a piece of Italian Spruce to be Master Grade would be to have a very tight grain width consistent in size and completely across the top and no bearclaw. Which, with Italian, finding stuff without bearclaw is really hard. And the only people I will save these tops for are the Japanese. They like as clean a top as possible. But even they are realizing great sounding woods are more important than those with perfect aesthetics.

Lance
[/QUOTE]

Hehehe....

Also, I've got a few Italian tops with bearclaw, and a whole bunch of straight grained (but not master grade by your definition, since I don't think they're worth the upcharge, and I like a bit of character), very nice, very stiff Italian tops. I really need to find a weekend to visit Rivolta again, though; breaking an arm sort of messed with my scheduling...they do have a reasonable number of what you describe as 'Master Grade' tops, within reason; they're not horribly common, but they're in there with the rest of the stuff.
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