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is the problem the nut?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10731		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  martinedwards [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:41 am ]
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OK troops, I've just finished a EIR/Cedar jumbo.

It's gorgeous and DEFINITELY the best sounding and feeling guitar I've built.....

BUT

it goes out of tune.

The strings have been on a week and I don't do any bending, just strumming.

I tune it with a digital tuner and it's spot on. one song later its out. but only the wound strings.

Before I tear it apart, could it be the strings binding in the nut as I tune it, then slipping through a little more as I'm playing?

that would be easier to fix than anything else......

Whattayathink?
Author:  Dave White [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:58 am ]
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Martin,

Have you checked the usual suspects, like the ball ends of the strings are properly seated on the bridgeplate? Are the strings going sharp or flat? Is it all of the wound strings? What make are they?

It could be the nut - carefully re-file and check they are seating properly and that they slope away at the back of the nut.

Could be the tuners.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:20 am ]
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I read recently that round core wound strings are prone to go out of tune if they are trimmed too soon after installing. Apparantly, the windings begin to unravel if trimmed before they set in.

Is this true?
Author:  martinedwards [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:37 am ]
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the pins are horn and I'm not that impressed (though they look good i'll run the dremel along the slots to open them up some more, as I already had to do this with the E & A but they're still a bit too tight.

they always detune. they're Martin Phos Bronze Mediums so they're not the cheapest I could get!!

(I'm still waiting for the OLF D'Addarios to come.......)

I'l do this before I attack the nut, pins being easier to replace.

and as for JJ's query about the unwinding, that's news to me!! I ALWAYS trim the strings as soon as they go on. Never had any problem with unwinding, but then I've only got through about a set a month on average for the last 25 years!!
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:44 am ]
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Have you tried tuning the guitar, stretching the strings, and retuning a few times? I mean really stretching them, like an inch off the fretboard. When you put a wire under tension, especially a thicker one, it tends to stretch which reduces the tension on it. On guitar string, this means that strings rarely hold tune well until they're 'stretched in'. This process takes a pretty long time to happen just by playing for many people.

Since I've started 'pre-stretching', my instruments stay pretty close to in tune even if I don't play them for a week or two, with the exception of that Gibson with the one tuner that slips. I learned the trick a long time ago from an article by some big artist's guitar tech.
Author:  Dave White [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:48 am ]
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[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] I read recently that round core wound strings are prone to go out of tune if they are trimmed too soon after installing. Apparantly, the windings begin to unravel if trimmed before they set in.

Is this true?[/QUOTE]

JJ,

Yes you are right I think. This is certainly the case with Newtone strings where you have to wind them to tension and then trim at the tuner posts. these are round core wound strings. If you don't do this properly, not only do they go out of tune they are a dead set of strings.
Author:  Sam Price [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:52 am ]
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[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] I read recently that round core wound strings are prone to go out of tune if they are trimmed too soon after installing. Apparantly, the windings begin to unravel if trimmed before they set in.

Is this true?[/QUOTE]

*old lady voice* For eighteen LONG yearrrrs, I've trimmed as soon as the strings go on (because I LOVE the feeling of those sharp wires pricking my fingers ), and I have never had a problem with the strings going out of tune in the way that Martin has described.

On some guitars, the strings kinda have a settling in period of about a couple of hours, but the last two guitars I had, have had top quality tuners that seem to lessen that problem to a great degree.

COuld it be string binding? I suggested in another forum this may be the problem, because I had similar teething troubles with my Celtic Dred when I first strung 'er up, especially when I kept detuning her to get the action and intonation sorted.

I'm too stingy to put new strings on until a couple of months of use!!

A quick string slot filling with a graphite pencil seemed to eliminate that problem.
Author:  martinedwards [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:44 am ]
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OK update.

I've widened the slots in the pins and they now sit more level.

Bob, I usually stretch the strings by lifting the guitar off my lap one string at a time!!, this isn't the problem, HONEST!!!

I'm going to attack the nut tomorrow in work where my files are. the strings SEEM to run freely through the slots when the tension is off.

The nut is maybe 1/2 mm too high, I'll lower it and see, nothing to loose other than a $1 piece of Tiawanese ox bone!!
Author:  pharmboycu [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:25 am ]
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Are you stretching the strings after you put them on? That solves the majority of my tuning issues. The windings fit on the machines well, but there is always some slack in the winds. I usually tug laterally on the string, retune and repeat until the string no longer goes flat. Repeat that process on all the strings and you should be good to go. I don't like to tug on the string perpindicular to the soundboard as I think that may put undue strain on the neck and string. I *really* think that will solve the problem. It's one of the tricks I learned from a *GREAT* musician.

STORY TIME-- It works so well that this musician went so long without having to retune that at a festival, a spider made its web across the tuning pegs while the guitar was in its stand. This professional musician played a couple of shows a day over the course of a couple of days and the web stayed put because he didn't have to retune. There is a picture in his house of the headstock with this web with the CF Martin logo on the frame (since the headstock doesn't have the logo... *hint hint*). The only reason the web disappeared was (if memory serves me correctly) a certain dobro player (?????-- may not have been him, but I *think* it was-- don't quote me on that part) wiped it off. Needless to say, this musician was a little sad at that-- he hadn't had to retune yet!
Author:  Michael Lloyd [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:23 pm ]
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Hi Martin,

Sometimes if you warp the string too many times, more than four times, around the pegs they will settle between themselves and causing the string to go out of tune more frequently. This generally happens on the wound strings.
Author:  Alain Desforges [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:12 pm ]
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[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] I read recently that round core wound strings are prone to go out of tune if they are trimmed too soon after installing. Apparantly, the windings begin to unravel if trimmed before they set in.

Is this true?[/QUOTE]

JJ, I've had that exact problem happen to me for the very first time a few months ago. Now it has happened to me three times since! Thomastick Infelds, no less! Always the low E or the A unravelling on me... Oh the humanity!!!!
Author:  martinedwards [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:54 pm ]
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it's not that Michael, I loop the strings under after a 1/2 turn so the bottom 3 strings don't have more than one turn on there.

I'm going to file the nut today and re tighten everything on the tuners.....
I'll let y'all know
Author:  Kim [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:16 pm ]
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First have a looked at the usual suspects as mentioned above, EG: bring each string up to pitch with the electronic tuner switched on and then try pushing down firmly on the strings right near the tuner post while watching the needle. If this has no effect other than increasing the pitch only until you release pressure it is probably not binding in the nut that is your problem.

If you have exhausted the avenues of bridge pin slip, string stretch, nut bind and tuner post slippage and still not found the problem, then you may have to ask yourself if the neck was made from well quartered well seasoned wood? Check the relief of the neck after you bring it back up to pitch, later on, when it goes out of tune again, have another look to see if the relief has altered any.

The neck may be still settling into tension and moving about a little. Unless the wood is really well seasoned this can be an issue because there will be more movement with changes in the ambient. If you suspect this is an issue, back off the truss rod just a little to introduce just a little more relief than normal into the neck. This will load it up for a while and may help stabilise things a little. In a few months, if it settles down, you can then back the strings off and pull the relief back out with the truss rod.

Also (cringe ) have a look at the back of the bridge and also across the top of the guitar for any sign of a delamination or deformity.

Happy Futzing about.

Kim
Author:  Sam Price [ Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:59 pm ]
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We ought to start making bets before Martin comes back with his diagnosis...



Author:  martinedwards [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:42 am ]
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well the nut is now sorted (which puts the intonation about 8 cents closer to perfection ) and everything is tightened up. all seems well, though I'll have to give it a thrash tonight after the kids hit the sack.

so far so good. I've played about 20 minutes of quiet picking & strumming and the tuning is holding up.

sadly, as I did all the work in one go there's no way of anyone cashing in their bets as to ECXACTLY what the problem was!!
Author:  Sam Price [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:24 am ]
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Glad you've got it sorted!

One annoying thing about newly built, persoanlly owned guitars is that they seem to have few entries for the honey-do list....my guitar has quite a few "honey dos", like the top refinished, and I really want to reset and thin the neck a little more...
Author:  martinedwards [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:17 am ]
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yup!!

This one still has one thing that'll have to wait till the next string change.

The truss rod is loose in it's slot and can be felt (but not heard) vibrating with some chords. a 1/4 turn will tighten it in the slot without messing with the relief.

Ah well, it's a keeper!!!

(Till I make something better of course!!!)
Author:  Sam Price [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:11 am ]
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[QUOTE=martinedwards]


(Till I make something better of course!!!)[/QUOTE]


Oh, you will...you really liked that dreadnought you made too...It'll just keep getting better!
Author:  Greg [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:34 pm ]
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The strings have to stretch out, the wood neck and body have to aclimatize to the string tension, humidity,etc. Don't do anything yet except retune and keep playing.
Author:  npalen [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:02 am ]
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Martin
Perhaps there's a loose "nut" on the fretboard?
Nelson
Author:  Sam Price [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:11 am ]
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That's what I've been telling him in all the time I've known him!!!
Author:  martinedwards [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:19 pm ]
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Cruel.
















True, but cruel
Author:  Sam Price [ Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:07 am ]
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Awww....it's the nutters wot are the best!

Author:  npalen [ Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:08 am ]
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You guys "crack" me up.
Author:  Sam Price [ Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:26 am ]
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I'm only "taking the peecan"....or the pistacho!!

(might take you a while to "get it"...)
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