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| What about West Sytem Epoxy? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10764 |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:44 pm ] |
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Has anyone used West System 105 resin and 205 hardner for pore filling/sealing? There is always a lot of discussion about Z-Poxy but I was wondering if other Epoxy's have been tried/used. I didn't want to hi-jack the Z-poxy specific questions. If others what info on other brands...go ahead here if you like but I would like to hear about West. Thanks Shane |
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| Author: | Greg [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:37 pm ] |
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Not yet but it is easier to get near me than System 3. So I too would like to know. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:58 pm ] |
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Thirded although i've hears that west system epoxies dry up very white, would also like to hear more on this. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:15 pm ] |
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I've used it. It works fine but takes a LONG time to cure to the sanding point. |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:22 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Pwoolson] I've used it. It works fine but takes a LONG time to cure to the sanding point.[/QUOTE] I have learned that THAT'S the reason for the Z-Poxy 'finishing' resin. It will set harder and be more easily sanded. |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:23 pm ] |
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I built my first guitar with a builder named Brad Nickerson. He is well-respected in the archtop genre, but builds a mean flattop as well. Brad uses West System exclusively, for epoxy needs. I think it would be accurate to say that he believes very strongly in the product. In fact, he goes so far as to use it in several aspects of his building, including pore filling/sealing. I have personally seen him use it to very thinly coat the inside of his guitars, glue on a fretboard, glue on a bridgeplate, aid in crack repair, etc. I cannot speak personally to the issue of a long cure time prior to sanding, but if it dries white it does not show through the finishes...as Brad's nitro finishes are at an exceptional level. It's good stuff. Fairly pricey, but very good. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:23 pm ] |
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Paul, How long is "LONG"? |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:25 pm ] |
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Oh, one other thing: if I'm not mistaken there are several formulations of West Systems that vary mostly with the hardener. In other words you can tune your West System epoxy to a specific cure time. I could be wrong about this, but I'm fairly certain there's a fast/slow hardener component. |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:30 pm ] |
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West Systems Epoxy |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:39 pm ] |
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When I helped my father restore race boats as a kid we finished the entire boats with it. Thinned with acetone it's sprayable, but will also flow out well when brushed. There are different speed hardeners, but if I recall correctly we used the standard 105/205 mixture. I've personally never given much though to sealing or pore filling with epoxy. I realize the appeal of having a truly level surface without the shrinkage left by many fillers that has to be leveled out with the clear coats. Still, clear filler sounds rather unappealing to me, as I think a carefully chosen shade (usually darker) of pore filler can do wonders to accentuate a wood's color and character. I realize you could tint the epoxy as well, but it seems like more hassle to me than just using a traditional sealer and filler. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:40 pm ] |
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I asked about this a while back and a very active OLFer emailed me (PM) that it was the choice of a professional (guitar) finisher he knew- trade secrets don't allow me to reveal the name! He'd seen the results and it looked great. Serge:I've used a lot of WEST on boat projects and it cures clear. They also make a 'super clear' hardener (207). Some silica additives (Cabosil imitations) do not cure clear after mixing with epoxy. Be sure to test if you are using silica. For thin film applications be sure to buy the 'Fast'(205)hardener if you are using the 'regular' hardeners.. As long as you get the epoxy spread out within 10 min or so you will be OK (you can even spread it out in a foil pan or similar if you are not ready to apply it to your project). Once the epoxy gets partially cured (so bubbling and outgassing is not likely to be a problem) you can put the project in a warm area to get to the hard stage a little more quickly. BTW, I've used SystemThree epoxy as well and it tended to be more difficult in my hands (problems with amine blush) but it is the favourite of many. Get back to me in a month and I will have a fuller report on WEST- just putting in the end grafts so finishing is a way off! Cheers John |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:45 pm ] |
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Thanks Larry...looks like #207 Hardner is JUST the ticket! I have been using 205 for years with the 105 resin. Tomorrow I will order some 207 and then try it out on some scraps...next to Z-poxy. Thanks All Shane |
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| Author: | David R White [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:51 pm ] |
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I pore fill with West using the 105 resin and the 207 hardener, which I understand is the clearest of the hardeners they have. It works well, it does not dry white. I always leave it on 24 hours to cure, at which point it is very hard and sands easily. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:06 pm ] |
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Cool! Thanks David. That is the way I am going go! Shane |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:16 pm ] |
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Thanks for posting this question as I too being Canuck bound by West system (no easily accessable Z-poxy up north here) have wanted to try it but haven't had the gumption to give it a go. Soooooo, does that mean that your working on your guitar again??? Can't wait to see it soon. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:40 pm ] |
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Thanks John, David, Bill and everyone great thread, i think i'll give that a try! |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:07 pm ] |
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Rod, I can get Z-pozy in my local craft store. I actually went there today and had them order me in some Z-poxy finishing resin, but I think I will stick with West if i works out. I also have a gallon each of Black and Mahogany oil based fillers from ChemCraft. So I just need to get at it and see what I like! Anyway, if you want some Z-poxy I can get you some and send it down. Shane |
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:01 am ] |
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Don't forget to read the instructions. All epoxies have a minimum temperature for curing, below that temperature nothing happens it just will not cure--ever. West systems does have a low temperature hardener and this will help in colder shops, but a heat box may be useful this time of year. Al |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:16 am ] |
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[QUOTE=A Peebels] Don't forget to read the instructions. All epoxies have a minimum temperature for curing, below that temperature nothing happens it just will not cure--ever. West systems does have a low temperature hardener and this will help in colder shops, but a heat box may be useful this time of year. Al[/QUOTE] Good advice. 205 Hardener will cure (slowly) almost down to freezing temperatures but the 206/7 hardeners need somewhat warmer conditions. The heat box (insulated box with light bulb and thermostat or similar) is best used to store your epoxy if you are working in a cold shop since you will not be able to pump, meter, or mix cold epoxy effectively as it becomes very viscous and will even crystallize if it gets cold enough. Applying epoxy cold and then warming the work will result in lots of bubbling and problems. This is all more of an issue with boatbuilding than guitar-building, I'd think. You're not going to do instrument-grade work with cold hands! John |
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| Author: | Mike Dotson [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:37 am ] |
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I've never used a silica with it but I've used West on Walnut and Koa for pore filling and recently on Redwood to toughen it up. It works nice and dries very clear with a slight amber tint. I do it FP style with a rag wetted in alcohol. Usually takes a couple times, sanding in between. |
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:30 am ] |
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The key is to keep it between 70 and 90 deg. F. Too hot is a bad thing as well. Al |
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