Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Sanders -Powermatic 25" anyone?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10782		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Don Williams [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:37 am ]
Post subject: 
I find myself at a crossroads with my current sander. It needs tons of work, and tons of money to be invested to make it really useful for my business. Frankly, it's slowing me down and costing me money.
I've been researching sanders, and am trying to figure out what the best option for me is.

I've ruled out the Woodmaster. Sorry you WM folks, but I can't get myself to buy something that uses hook n' loop paper. Not gonna happen.

The Grizzly G0527 18" wide-belt seems like the very best option for someone in the small scale guitar wood / guitar building industry, but it's pricey, and I would need to upgrade my service from 100A to 200A to handle the strain on the electrical system. There's no more room for anything else in the panel, although I suppose a subpanel ins't out of the question. Still, that's a considerable expense I would also be seeing in order to run that sander. I'm also guessing that I would need to buy a new dust collector to handle the load of this sander. Even my current collector is taxed by my existing sander.

At half the price of the Grizzly, sits the Powermatic DDS-225 which is a dual-drum sander that seems to have some very nice features. Still, it's a drum sander, and won't perform like a wide-belt sander.

Does anyone out there have this sander? If so, what do you think of it?

Thanks...
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:40 am ]
Post subject: 
...or you could always send your stuff the Buffalo and have it sanded in The Zootman's Pizza Oven
Author:  Don Williams [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:47 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey JJ.... the Zootman's Pizza Oven ain't even wired up yet!
He's got the G0527, which is really my first choice. Whether or not it's financially feasible is another question.
It may only be $4800 to get it here, but I'd have to pay a rigger to get it into the basement shop (it's 1008 lbs shipping weight), but there's the elctrical work to be done also.
I'm in a catch-22, since my sander is so bad, I can't process wood. But without selling wood, I can't buy a new sander. It takes money to buy a new one. So it's either fish or cut bait as they say.

Author:  Homeboy [ Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Don,
My father has the performax dual drum sander. It is a good sander but I don't like it any better than a single drum sander. It is hard to keep the two drums in alignment so I find myself using just the first drum and not the second. Maybe I am no good at setup but this is my opinion. When I went to buy my sander I bought the performax single drum 22-44. I like it a lot but a wide belt sander is always better.

Blake
Author:  Brook Moore [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:08 am ]
Post subject: 
I have had the Powermatic for a few months, replacing a Delta 18/36. Its
massive construction makes the Delta seem like a toy.
I run 80/120 in it, and can quickly take off .020" at a shot. I find that I
can always run it at the faster feed rate. It needs a pretty good dust
collector. I thought I would use the reversing feed belt, but in practise it
is faster to let the wood keep moving forwards. It is great to have the
option of feeding at a big angle with sides, or cross-grain on tops.

As with any drum sander, the belts will clog with resin from oily woods.
(By the way, I came across a fastastic cleaning tip: running a piece of
plexiglass through the sander will usually remove the resin! Very smelly
however, - don't do this in a home workshop.)

One frustrating design flaw is the "limit switch" that is designed to protect
the drum if you try and feed a piece that is too thick for the setting. I
have found that you can get in trouble with a 1/16" cut, but the limit
switch will not engage unless you are trying to sand about 3/4" in one
pass! This is a fixable issue, but I want to complain to PM first. Taking too
large of a cut will destroy the first belt, and possibly even the rubber
coating on the drum.

Another design weakness is the attachment of the table to the mounts on
the threaded height rods. The table is pretty massive, but is locked on
with one VERY small set screw on each rod. I found that even moderate
bumps during transport were enough to cause the table to drop lower on
the mount on one or more rods. I don't think this is a problem once
installed, but it needs to checked on arrival.

I did not find the factory setup to be accurate, so expect a few hours
devoted to tweaking the table so both drums are accurate. There is a nice
height control for the rear drum that allows you to easily set its
relationship to the front one. I still have some more tweaking to do on
mine to get the cut within a couple of thou.

I have not found a source of pre-cut belts, so am cutting my own from 3"
stock. Once I figure out a technique, this is not too bad, though I was
pretty irritated at first. Expect 10 minutes for a single belt change, unless
pre-cut belts show up.

All in all, I am glad I bought it, though for the price, I was hoping it would
arrive ready to run. It is very rugged and generally well thought out,
except for the issues mentionned above. Way faster than the Delta.
However, if I was in the tonewood business I would prefer to have an 18"
wide belt over the 25" drum. I think the cooler wide belts would have a lot
less down time from resin build-up. (Though it is possible that running
say 60/80 grits on the drums would help a lot with that.)

Brook
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Brook,

Thank you for that well-written and insightful critique.
I am starting to realize why folks like John Hall, Tim McKnight, Sylvan Wells, and The Zootman have chosen the Grizzly 18" wide belt sander. It would seem that it is fantastic unit. Sylvan has had his for two or three years, and has never had to change the belt during that time from getting gunked up with resins. That is very impressive...
By all accounts, these folks really love their G0527's.

Looks like I have some work to do...
Author:  SimonF [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:26 am ]
Post subject: 
Don,
If you can spring for it, you really need a wide-belt. It will save you a lot
of time. But if you insist on going with a drum sander, your best bet is
with Woodmaster - their sanders perform better and there is no way
around it. The velcro backing gives you about a 0.005" to 0.010" buffer
that you have to allow for. In other words, when you are taking a piece
down to thickness - allow for the discrepancy that a couple more passes
will give you. But their machines perform exceptionally well with a good
dust collector. Except for the oiliest of woods, you will never need to
clean the sandpaper - which is a far cry from the typical drum sander
experience.

But because of your tonewood business, I really think that a drum sander
will always be a frustration. With a wide-belt, you can just set the
thickness and start sanding. Personally, I wouldn't benefit in much time
savings by going to a wide-belt over my Woodmaster - because it does
everything I need perfectly. But you would definitely notice substantial
time savings.

Best of luck,
Simon
Author:  stan thomison [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Don
Bill has been looking (I have been looking and thinking same thing) at the General Int. dual drum sander. Bill is really considering this for our shop. I am thinking of it for my home shop someday. Looks very well built. The same store has the powermatic and for the extra money doesn't seem any if it even is as good as the General(Gen price is 1800+/- a few bucks. It doesn't have that stupid clip thing that Grizzly has to hold abrasive (I have the griz at his shop and he has a delta 16/32 also)I am with you and not keen on the velcro thing on drums has to hold tha abrasive, and the paper is really tight on the drums.
If I was doing alot more than I am I might consider the widebelt 18 Griz for 3800 or so, but don't know if what we do, would make that much difference. The general and have used them before is very solid and performs along time with few problems
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:14 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey Don,

I have a General Int dual drum...want it? It is a fine machine but I will be going to the Grizz 18 inch wide belt, hopefully later this year. It means that I have to drive to Belligham Wash to get it and that is about 1200 miles each way for me but I think that the wide belt is in different category than the double drum and will be worth while. Bu it does depend on your work Don. I find at times that I am sanding 2 and 300 spruce sets at one sessionand can do OK with my double drum as long as my cutting was all uniform. If not then the sander will have a bit of time dealing with the differences (I keep my drive belts very tight!). With EIR the belts do gum quite fregently. I use 60/80 grit.

One thing to consider is taht the Grizzly W/B needs air to operate the table. I am plumbing my shop for my big compressor and am running an extra bib over to where the sander will live.


Don, if you can swing it, just start with the Grizzly, you will want to go there anyway. Colonial Steve also uses this sander...

Shane
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:50 am ]
Post subject: 
I actually looked at the General at my local WOodcraft store, but there were a couple things I didn't like about it. They are probably inconsequential, but it seemed like the Powermatic was only a little bit more but better built. The Grizzly 18"WB seems to be what I'm leaning toward. I have limited time to process my woods, and drum sanders seem to take forever to get the job done.
I have a decent compressor, and already have lines running through the shop to different locations, so that's a non-issue for me. What IS going to be an issue is getting that 900 lb unit down into my basement shop! I think the stairs will handle the load ok, and I can squeak it through the doors without the packing crate, but the actual getting it down there could be very tough. I would hire some professionals to get it down there I think. Finding room for it...well that's another issue.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:09 am ]
Post subject: 
IIRC, the Powermatic in photos looks like it comes out of the same factory as the General. The General and the Woodtek also appear identical on the surface. There can be differences under the skin with these Taiwanese machines, but the Woodtek (Woodworkers Supply) is the least expensive of the group.

The 18" Griz wide belt is my dream machine. 2-3 years on a single belt? Unbelieveable!
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey, the system isn't showing me an edit button on my last post.

Want to add that there is a brand that also looks the same that someone sells on Ebay. I think the brand name is Accura.
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Howard, was that the same as the General, or the same as the Grizzly WB?
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:14 am ]
Post subject: 
Same as General, sorry for being unclear
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Howard...much appreciate the clarification.
Author:  Pwoolson [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Don, I've got the 25" General and really regret purchasing it. Don't get me wrong, it is a well built machine but the dual drum technology just sucks. If you are going to be processing tonewoods, many with resins, I can pretty much guarantee that you'll regret buying a drum sander.
I know all the tricks for resin prevention and removal and still have to change belts after just about every set sanded. It's very annoying!
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've been trying to find a way to justify the 18" wide belt Griz. It makes no sense economically, in terms of the investment and its return, but every time the belt clogs with resin on my 18" Delta, I think about the wide belt.

Now, if I were in the tonewood business, that would put it over the top. Hmmmm.
Author:  Don Williams [ Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Howard....you're making it real easy for me to spend my money! It's almost like you're spending it for me!
Guess I'm gonna need to unload some of my BRW to pay for it.

Here's the board that a couple sets will come from:

WARNING: May Cause W.A.S. Attack.






A few more (?) sets will be that ugly straight-grained, quarter-sawn, brick red stuff.
Author:  jsimpson [ Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:46 am ]
Post subject: 

[QUOTE=Don Williams]I find myself at a crossroads with my current sander. It needs tons of work, and tons of money to be invested to make it really useful for my business. Frankly, it's slowing me down and costing me money.


Thanks...[/QUOTE]


Hi Don,


Don't know if it helps your immediate needs or not, but I have a friend that wants to unload an 18" Delta, nearly new and asking $550+/-.  Might get you by, anyway.  MSG me if interested.


Jon
Author:  Brock Poling [ Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:15 am ]
Post subject: 

Is it really going to happen this time Don? Just cut a little of that BRW and you will have more than enough money to buy that sander.

It is a no brainer.

I have used Tim's and it is a SWEET piece of machinery...
Author:  Don Williams [ Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:54 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
Is it really going to happen this time Don? Just cut a little of that BRW and you will have more than enough money to buy that sander.
It is a no brainer.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, easy <gulp>.

As you can see, that wood is very rare, primo stuff.
I hate the thought of having to sell any of it, but as a means to an end, it might be a good one. I will have between 8 and 10 sets of that stuff once it's all cut, and if I sell a couple of them, it probably won't kill me. It will hurt, but it won't kill me.
I'm very emotionally attached to it.

I also have another plank that has beautiful straight-grained perfectly quartered brick red BRW. Again, 8-10 sets.
Even though I personally like the figured stuff best, the straight grained wood is even more valuable in some circles, especially the "traditional" guitar market.

My supply shouldn't suffer too badly from selling a few sets, and then I can really kick out some work and not worry so much about wrecking sandpaper sanding cocobolo etc.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/