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flat vs quarter sawn
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10909		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  jonhfry [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:50 am ]
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I found a really big hardwood warehouse this past weekend near me.
The problem is most of the woods are not quarter sawn.


Is flat sawn mahoganey still strong enough to build necks with?


Thanks
Author:  Dave White [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:01 am ]
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Jon,

If you want quatersawn necks you just cut the flatsawn stuff, flip it and glue 2 pieces (or 3 or with other wood laminations) togetehr and voila - a quartersawn neck.
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:02 am ]
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if you build a laminated neck by standing the flat sawn on edge and gluing it together, guess what, it's just like quartersawn. but using flat sawn stock flat, so to speak, is highly unrecommended.

such yards usually do not cater to the instrument maker and cut accordingly. may will let you sort through their stacks and you can usually find what you need though. just be sure to leave everything tidy when you finish or you won't be so welcome on your next visit.,
Author:  jonhfry [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:17 am ]
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So, when you say cut it and flip it, do you mean rip it down the middle, and flip the middle edges outward?
Author:  Dave White [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:26 am ]
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[QUOTE=jonhfry]

So, when you say cut it and flip it, do you mean rip it down the middle, and flip the middle edges outward?

[/QUOTE]

Jon,

As Michael says if you turn flatsawn wood around by 90 degrees the grain becomes quatersawn - the side is now the top. so if you cut a flatsawn piece down the middle and flip the two pieces 90 degrees (same as bookmatching a top), glue them so the sides of the cut are on the top. It's now quatersawn.
Author:  jonhfry [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:34 am ]
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THANKS!


I got the visual, "book matching" makes it clear to me.


I got enough flat sawn african and honduran mahoganey for 35 bucks to keep me busy for sometime. I wanted to make it right though.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:06 am ]
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I cut my 2-piece necks from large flat sawn boards. I like to keep them in rough sawn form for a while in case they want to move at all after they are cut. One thing I like to do when sawing up many blanks like this is to mirror the neck pattern along the length of the board, and I code each blank so I know where it was located in the board. This way I can mach each neck with so the two pieces will have similar grain. This means that when the neck is glued up, any movement in one of the pieces will be cancelled out by an opposite but equal movement in the other piece, giving a very stable neck. That's the theory, anyways.

Grain orientation: So far I have oriented the growth rings like this \\\///, others like to orient the grain this way, ///\\\ (fingerboard on top). Some have commented that the latter way may be better for resisting peeling stresses in the glue joint, and I guess that makes sense so I probably want to do that next time. I have not had any problems with the glue joint on these however; it is a pretty big gluing surface. Due to the geometry of the neck blanks after roughing sawing it can be difficult to plane the edges on these by hand before glue-up, so this is one joint where I use my large power jointer. I have also used a long belt sander, but I generally feel a planed edge is superior to a sanded one, so I prefer that when it is practical.

If I'm cutting up a 2" board I also slice a piece off the side from each billet for kerfed linings. This will reduce the billet to about 40 mm, which is fine for 2-piece necks. I make the linings by first sanding the thin off cut piece to 6 mm, I then kerf it on the table saw and next I slice it into individual linings. I plane these strips to a triangular shape with a block plane.

I have also made flat sawn necks from mahogany, and I have not noticed any more movement in these necks than the quarter sawn ones, so I’m not sure how much it matters. One thing to consider is that wood generally shrinks and expands more with humidity along the growth rings than across, so a neck would in theory move more in width if it was flat sawn rather than quartered. With nice and stable mahogany I don't think it is very noticeable.   FWIW, Fender maple necks, violin necks and many mandolin necks are flat sawn.

I think I showed this pickture before, but what the heck...
Author:  Steve Saville [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:39 am ]
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[QUOTE=jonhfry]Is flat sawn mahoganey still strong enough to build necks with?
[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone answered this question.
I suspect because of the nature of mahogany that it is strong enough in either direction. There are some assumptions about grain direction and strength that aren't true. Often it makes no difference, and sometimes wood is actually more stiff as flat sawn. There have been some studies on sitka bracing that have shown this.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:17 am ]
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I recommend the method Arnt describes so clearly in his post- make a 'cutting profile' template of your neck shape (with tenon, etc) and lay out your cutting plan on the board. You can save a great deal of lumber doing it this way . If you are using a fairly homogeneous-looking board of mahogany, you can usually get away with gluing together pieces from different parts of the board if you have some 'odd' leftovers.

Also, if you don't mind the look in the finished neck, you can use 4/4 boards and add a strip in the middle to make up the width. This can be a different species, or can be set off with veneers for contrast. In the yards I use, 4/4 lumber is generally quite a bit cheaper (per bf) than thicker stock.

Any laminated neck will be stronger than a solid neck with the same grain orientation, since cracks will not easily propagate across the glue line. My guess is that it would be stiffer as well, though I have no proof for that.

Cheers
John
Author:  CarltonM [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:46 am ]
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[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie] ...you can use 4/4 boards and add a strip in the middle to make up the width. This can be a different species, or can be set off with veneers for contrast. [/QUOTE]
Exactly. I've found some nice looking 3/4" flat-sawn mahogany at the local Menard's. If you go this route, take the time to look through their stock until you find a straight, near-perfectly flat-sawn board. Look for, and avoid, run-out too. If they don't have anything that fits the bill, walk away and come back later.

Some mahogany might work in a flat-sawn orientation as a neck, but you have to know how to test it first. I, and most beginners, don't know how. I've forgotten who said it, but I read a quote suggesting that beginners need the best, most stable wood they can find, because they don't know how to make the other stuff work properly. It sounds like good advice to me.

BTW, Fender gets away with flat-sawn neck wood because rock maple is quite a bit stiffer than mahogany (also much heavier). There's no good reason, though, for a low-volume builder to do that, I don't think.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:46 am ]
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Fender necks are also longer and skinnier than the typical acoustic guitar neck...

There is a very interesting thread in the MIMF library from 2000 called "Tone, strength, and other differences between flat-sawn and quartersawn necks"; I clipped a post by Rick Turner. (Hopefully the quote will be considered "fair use" so I can post it here, if not feel free to delete this post).

I'm afraid this is turning into one of those lutherie pissing contests where it's all theory, theory, theory and not enough practice, practice, practice.

In the long experience of many production luthiers including myself and Roger Sadowsky, with whom I've had this exact discussion, there is not a whit of difference between quarter sawn and flat sawn maple necks, given proper seasoning of the maple. This is for bolt-on necks for solid body instruments.

For bolt-on or dovetailed acoustic necks, there may be a good reason for going with vertical grain, and that's to minimize the possibility of heel cracks, even though the wood will expand and contract more in the orientation of the vertical face of the heel. I suppose you could then also argue the other side---that the grain orientation should match that of the neck block.

See what I mean? Pissing contest........ Debating society stuff.... Pick any side and make a bunch of great arguments. I could win tons of Ivy League debating points on either side of this one. Then I'd go back to my shop and make flat sawn necks when I feel like it and quarter sawn necks when I feel like it and not worry about either style.

I've been directly involved with making over 2,500 guitars and basses, and believe me, this argument isn't where the problems are.
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