Official Luthiers Forum!

I see that most of you offer a life time warranty. I'm wondering why. It seems that a lifetime is too long. Wouldn't a 5 year warranty be long enough?

Do you spend much time on warranty work?
Is this just expected because it is so common?

It seems that a well constructed instrument will last a very long time and 99% of returned guitars are for abuse rather than defects. Offering a shorter warranty might help with the debates between abuse of materials and workmanship.

Price must factor in to the equation. If I'm offering a hand made guitar for $2000, it seems that a 3 year warranty might be adequate, but if I'm offering a $10,000 guitar, a lifetime warranty would be expected.

I'm working on a website, so I've been thinking about this issue.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

For me, it's a customer service issue. Any wormanship or materials issues will surface within the first 5 years or so. After that, it's usually abuse issues. And I usually fix them anyway but make sure that the client knows that this is not a warranty issue and I'm going above an beyond.
I have a client in TX that keeps his guitar in a trailer all of the time. He says it's just easier than unloading it each night. Hmmm, I wonder why the bridge lifted!?! Definately not a warranty issue but I fixed it anyway. I'd rather eat one repair than anger a client. Angy clients tend to spread the news pretty quickly.

Always stand behind your work. I've got two guitars in right now I have to
repair. One is a warranty issue (the neck went nuts once it got to Hawaii)
and one is a pickup issue (it's an old guitar and not a warranty thing, but I'm
still doing it for free.) Guitars will need repair. You want people to know
your there to help them and that you have the confidence in your work to fix
anything that might have cropped up no matter what the circumstances.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

My warranty extends for the length of time that I am an active guitar builder. When I get old and feeble I wont be building guitars or be able to repair them.

Until then, I will stand behind them.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=LanceK] My warranty extends for the length of time that I am an active guitar builder. When I get old and feeble I wont be building guitars or be able to repair them.

Until then, I will stand behind them.

[/QUOTE]

Of course, when you are a 61 year old luthier like me, just what IS a lifetime warranty.

_________________
Hank Mauel

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
May I assume that those who have responded above limit their warranties to the original purchaser? [/QUOTE]

Yes.

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Hank Mauel

OK, I'm convinced - Lifetime it is.

It seems that most of the repair work is due to abuse and neglect. How do you handle repairs for customers that insist that it is a warranty issue when you know it was an abuse issue. Does that come up very often?
The last thing you want is an unhappy customer, but at some point do you need to draw the line and make someone unhappy?

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

The only PITA I have experienced sent the guitar back for "issues" he thought should be warranty. Fortunately when it arrived I had another well known luthier in my shop. When we opened the guitar, it had BARBECUE SAUCE on the top and fingerboard.
That's where I drew the line!

Other than that, no problems.
And, I have extended the warranty to second owners when I personally knew the condition and previous treatment of the instrument AND I personally knew the second owner and their care for guitars they already owned.

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Hank Mauel

Yes, trying to grill the guitar should not be a warranty issue.
One of my archtops came back to me last week for some rewiring (not warranty, the client just wanted me to change the capacitors). I did the work for free without being asked. He's happy as a clam and it was about an hour worth of work. I also noticed that I could see the grain in both the back and the top of the guitar (it's black). I checked the fret ends and sure enough they were all sticking out. This gave me a chance to lecture him a bit about proper treatment of the guitar. The guy has been playing for almost 50 years and he had no idea that you needed to keep the guitar at a respectible level of humidity.
A little babysitting goes a long way. For example: after a couple of months, call the client just to check up and make sure everything is going well. Then ask what the level is in the case. That's a good chance for you to tell them what it should be and the importance of it staying that way. You can also say that tops crack due to dryness and that is not a warranty issue.

I'm probably wrong, but wouldn't a 5 year warranty cover any materials and workmanship issues, and any problem after that be neglect and abuse?

It seems that it is so hard to make it in this business, if you have people bringing their neglected and abused guitars to you, expecting you to fix them for free, you'll not be in business very long. But if you turn them away or charge them, you won't be in business very long either. It seems like a tough balancing act where the nice customer gets the bad end of the deal and the PITA customers get free work that they are not entitled to.

The other tough part of this balancing act is how to build - Over built less responsive guitars that need fewer repairs, or lightly built, more responsive guitars that are more problematic.

I am so impressed with you guys that do this full time.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

[QUOTE=Hank Mauel] The only PITA I have experienced sent the guitar back for "issues" he thought should be warranty. Fortunately when it arrived I had another well known luthier in my shop. When we opened the guitar, it had BARBECUE SAUCE on the top and fingerboard.
That's where I drew the line!
[/QUOTE]
So tell us Hank. Did you document the Barbecue Sauce repair with lot's of pic's.
Hey 61 isn't that old.

_________________
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(716) 874-1498

[QUOTE=Bobc] [QUOTE=Hank Mauel] The only PITA I have experienced sent the guitar back for "issues" he thought should be warranty. Fortunately when it arrived I had another well known luthier in my shop. When we opened the guitar, it had BARBECUE SAUCE on the top and fingerboard.
That's where I drew the line!
[/QUOTE]
So tell us Hank. Did you document the Barbecue Sauce repair with lot's of pic's.
Hey 61 isn't that old. [/QUOTE]

No, I was so shocked that the fool would send the instrument back with all that crud on it that I just packed it back up and told him the "facts of life". Even Lance McCollum, present at the opening of the shipping carton, was incredulous! It really appeared as though he was playing at/during/while eating BBQ and just transferred the sauce from fingers to guitar. The guy did flame me a bit on his "home made" webpage, but that was the extent of it. Fortunately, he disposed of the guitar a year or so later. The second owner emailed me about the instrument and I gave him the "history" of the piece. Apparently it did not have the BBQ sauce on it when he bought it...but he said it sounded great and was just what he was looking for...another validation of my Theory of Second Owners, to wit: they should have been where the guitar went originally!

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Hank Mauel

Dang that looks good Hesh. We don't get good barbecue in Utah.

[QUOTE=Bobc]
So tell us Hank. Did you document the Barbecue Sauce repair with lot's of pic's.
Hey 61 isn't that old. [/QUOTE]

It's not that old, but it used to be!

_________________
now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com

[QUOTE=LanceK] My warranty extends for the length of time that I am an active guitar builder. When I get old and feeble I wont be building guitars or be able to repair them.

Until then, I will stand behind them.

[/QUOTE]


Dang, I don't know what to do. I was old and feeble when I started building. I guess I'll just guarantee them for my life.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Quote from my Warranty Form:

"It has a lifetime (yours or mine, whichever ends first) warranty to the original owner against defects in materials or workmanship."

Pretty well covers "lifetime"........

_________________
Hank Mauel

[QUOTE=Hank Mauel] Quote from my Warranty Form:

"It has a lifetime (yours or mine, whichever ends first) warranty to the original owner against defects in materials or workmanship."

Pretty well covers "lifetime"........ [/QUOTE]

After reading this I have to make "adjustments" to my warranty!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Hesh, if your cookin BBQ I'll forget about the Bahamas...what's your address!

Warrantee...we don't need no stinkin warrantee. I usually gve the old 60/60 warrantee that most mechanics give...60 feet or 60 seconds.

You know, I was told by a very famous Classical builder that most Flamenco Players don't expect their instruments to last more than five years. So I guess they aren't getting any kind of warrantee. I pretty much build my guitars close to failure so even tho I offer a warrantee I don't think anyone will really use it 10-20 years from now. I have had a few come back after a year or two for minor repairs. I guess if the claim was for something i determined to be poor craftsmanship I would fix it regardless. But I don't make mistakes so...I don't need no stinkin warrantee.

John Mayes always stands behind his work. I usually stand to the front, sometimes the side .

Once had a client who was a roofer and his mttto was "we stand on top of our work"

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

[QUOTE=Dave-SKG]

Once had a client who was a roofer and his mttto was "we stand on top of our work" [/QUOTE]

Thats a good one!

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

    I offer a lifetime warranty to be honored for my lifetime as a working
luthier. I spend very little time on warranty work and have had very few
warranty claims and returns in almost 500 guitars.

    My warranty states clearly that work will be performed after I have
examined the instrument and have determined that the condition in
question has been caused by defective materials or workmanship.

   I do not cover cracks in woods or finish caused by the changes in
humisity and temperature that the guitars are subjected to. On the other
hand, I have done repairs on some non-warranty covered cracks because
I had the time and wanted to extend that service to the customer. They're
rare and are usually not difficult or very time consuming to correct so it's
a nice investment to make in the continued builder/customer
relationship.

   Damage cause by abuse or neglect are easily detected by any
experienced luthier...especially on their own guitars. If there's any
argument over whether the damage is the result of a non-warranty issue,
the luthier involved can use his or her discretion as to whether or not they
will offe the work as a warranty courtesy or at a discounted repair rate.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

How do you tell if a crack is due to neglect or abuse instead of a material defect?

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

SteveS,
The presence (or absence) of other signs of poor humidity control and general neglect.

Steve,
   The very first step in preventing cracks due to defective materials is to
get your materials from vendors who are reputable and sell the best
quility available...like the guys here at the OLF. Using great quality
materials is the only absolute prevention for claims of defective materials.

    The next step is to keep the wood on hand for a year before
incorporating it into a guitar. If a year isn't an option or possibility before
using wood, invest in a Ligmatic moisture level reader or, at the very
least, a Mini-Ligmatic reader so that you can get a fairly accurate idea of
moisture content of the woods before you incorporate them in a guitar's
construction.

   In the event that a guitar is returned to you with a crack in the woods
along with a claim that it is due to defective materials, it is very easy to
determine whether or not proper environment has been maintained for it.

   There will be the other tell-tale signs of the guitar living in low
humidity for extended periods of time beside th cracks that cn develop as
the woods surrender to the tension created by their shrinking as the dry
out and are stretched between the glue joints.

     A day or two in a reduced humidity environment shouldn't present a
danger of cracking, but more likely checking of finishes. If a short
exposure to low humidity causes cracking, there may be a problem with
the final dimensions and construction that the builder has arrived at and
he'll have to examine those things if warranty issues become mor
common than what he believes to be acceptable.

    It's when a guitar lives for extended periods of time in a low humidity
environment that the typical signs are evident at a glance. Most common
are the grain lines of the top becoming very pronounced a ridges when
you tilt the guitar to create a reflective view of the surface. That glass
smooth surface that left the shop as new has become one of raised lines
that are not only visible, but can be felt when you run your hand across
the grain of the top.

    Also, sharp fret ends or fret ends that have dressed off and repolished
after the customer received the guitar from you are a good indication that
the fingerboard has shrunk due to low humidity and the frets have been
allowed to protrude..exposing their sharp ends. This is another detail that
should be easily spotted since the customer or their local tech will, most
likely not match the techniques used by the builder to finish the fret
ends.

    Another indication is unacceptably low action or a set up change made
to return the action to reasonable height to eliminate the buzzing and to
compensate for the neck and top distortion that occurs with excessive
drying. The most common indication is a raised saddle being in the slot
that brings the height of the saddle above the bridge to a dimension hat
exceeds that of the original setup while still providing similar action over
the fingerboard.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars