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| Need advice - building & pricing a BRW-45 http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=11253 |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:44 am ] |
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Ok, so here's the deal. I have a customer, who also happens to be a very close friend, who wants me to build him a jumbo guitar. The kicker is, he wants style-45 inlay, primo adi top, and old-growth straight-grained Brazilian back and sides. It would probably be a 3-piece back. Included with this guitar would be a custom Ameritage case, and gold engraved Waverly tuners....so...the works. I know he would not want me to lose money on building this, and in fact he would insist on me making money and charging a reasonable amount. And in this I find myself with the inability to balance friendship and business.... When I look at the Martin site, I see a D-45V that lists in at almost 11K, and it's East Indian rosewood, not quartersawn, primo old growth BRW. Dang, what would they charge for that?! So for you guys who have built such beasts, and who have also built such beasts for friends, how would you price something like this? Thanks....this is really eating me up. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:09 am ] |
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Based on your stated dilemma, you would feel uncomfortable charging market price...unless he's aware and willing to pay the market price. So, figure out the material cost and add a minimal amount for your labor. Too bad he's a friend! |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:13 am ] |
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One more thing...are you sure he wouldn't flip it and sell it for market price? That sounds cruel I know but I would hate to see you taken advantage of after lamenting over taking the job. |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:14 am ] |
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I still think you quote it out as if it were a standard customer, then take off a % of your choice. What that % is is up to you, but I would probably go 25 or 30% if it were me. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:36 am ] |
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Yes, and that is a possibility. Still, I'm looking for a multitude of opinions and thoughts on the matter. JJ, he's not the type to turn around and sell it. Not in the least. He's a total class act. True blue. It's very hard, because if I were to sell this to an unknown customer, the price would be over $8k for such a beast. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:38 am ] |
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I have never built anything that fancy, but my "acquaintance price" is 10 % lower than my regular price and I tell them right away if they ask me to build something for them. Most seem to think that this is reasonable, or they insist on paying the regular price. Some of course get a funny look an their face and that is the end of it, but they are usually not the closest friends... Besides, if you go much lower than that how does that make you look to your other customers who paid full price? |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:53 am ] |
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Don, It depends a lot on the friend and the relationship between you (I mean that in the best possible way  ). It could be anything from free to cost of materials to cost of materials plus basic labour charge to retail price minus x% as Lance suggests.
If you have "unknown customers" queueing up to pay you $8k+ for a Don Williamd BRW-D45 given the wood stash you are rumoured to be sitting on then your self imposed retirement seems a tad masochistic 
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| Author: | LanceK [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:54 am ] |
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Arnt, I may be wrong here, but I get the impression this fella is like a Brother to Don, so I think that he would fall in the "family" discount range 
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:26 am ] |
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Lance is right, he IS like a brother to me. Dang, I would give him the thing if I could afford to do so, but reality is what it is, and materials are huge on a project like this, and so is the amount of time required. So even accepting the commission at all is somewhat of a sacrifice for me, because my time is at a premium. How did a guy who's supposed to be retired from building guitars suddenly have a zillion guitars and stuff to build, and wood to slice and sell, and tools to buy, and.... dang. I guess I can't call myself retired from it anymore, can I? Oh, and the rumors about my BRW stash are seriously overestimated...sort of. |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:32 am ] |
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"Oh, and the rumors about my BRW stash are seriously overestimated...sort of." And WHO was it that STARTED'EM Rumors! 
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:37 am ] |
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Don, If you would "give" it to him, why not just charge him materials. This way you get to help a good friend and you gain experience in 45 style binding and such. Just don't let him tell others what the guitar cost him. A secret for the two of you. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:30 am ] |
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I knew your we're really retired you big tease
There is one other thing that no one else has mentioned, but maybe worth thinking about. Is there any way that you could have him built it with you Don? This could be a really cool project for you guys to do together. You can be the coach and he the student. That way the labor is shared and you two will have another life long memory to share. Than maybe at some point you two can just arm wrestle over the price. Let him know the total cost minus labor and than let him bless you as you will be blessing him. And this really sounds like more than the "family" discount to me. Heck I think family should have to pay more for the added privilege of being family
Apart from that and for any regular schmuck, I'd say $7,500 would be reasonable. |
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| Author: | sharp_custom [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:37 am ] |
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I just finished an OM-45 for a friend out of brazilian/adi and only charged 6K. That's about a 30% discount off of my regular price. It's a tough call for sure. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:48 am ] |
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I hear you on that Don... Rod, it used to be that we lived 20 minutes apart, now it is 3 hours, so no can do on that, although it's a nice idea. Hesh, thanks for the offer, that's very kind to be sure. I'll think about it over the next few years, and if I need the help with it, I'll let you know. Shelf space is going to be at a premium once it's all cut up.
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:03 am ] |
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Oh stop it Don!
Seriously, I agree that it depends on how close your friend is, and that it is difficult to take that much money from someone really close. Michael Propsom has some good advice: You should really let him know how much work is involved and the price of the materials, and what the going rate of such an instrument is so there are no misunderstandings. He will probably want to pay what it costs if he still wants the guitar. |
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| Author: | Burton LeGeyt [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:57 am ] |
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If it were me, I would maybe do some sort of barter system, like he pays cost for the tuners, top, and pearl and then kicks in something like....., oh I don't know, .....maybe a new wide belt sander? Either way it is going to be one sweet guitar for sure. |
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| Author: | Dave-SKG [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:10 am ] |
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Don, You probably don't need my 2cents but here goes... If you don't charge him a rate you are happy with two things are inevitable...1) you will always wonder IF you should have charged more and 2) He simply won't appreciate it as much. I don't care...family, lovers, friends...it doesn't matter. What the person should realy value isn't that you gave him a super deal...he should value that YOU made it FOR HIM. Also, if you don't charge what it's worth, for whatever reason, somehow people just don't appreciate it as much. This is true in all business...no matter the business. If I discount my CPA fees clients appreciate it, but if I charge them full tilt and explain all the extra work...they value what I did even more. Expensive gifts are simply not valued to the receiver as much as they should be. Don't get me wrong...he may be estatic that you built the guitar. BUT I GUARANTEE YOU he will love it even more if he pays 12k for it. Cheap gifts, are just that, and often appreciated and just as quickly tossed aside. CHARGE HIM. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:16 am ] |
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Don, I am not really in any position to advise you but you asked for a variety of different positions so here is another to think about. You have indicated that you have "precisious little time". I am always in the same position lately, young familiy, day job, tonewood to process and guitars to build both for my self and for friends. This weekend I had planned to cut wood, repair my bridge on my 12 string and cut the binding channels on my guitar #1. Instead, I spent the weekend working on the chicken coup so that I don't have to blast the hawk that killed two of my chickens!! The moral is, your time is valuable, very valuable. If you could be making other things or doing other projects or building a guitar for someone else then your friend needs to buy that time from you. He is not trading in the "social time" you and he share for you to build this guitar so that time comes out of someone elses block of time. If you build it for next to nothing the whole job will likely become a burden and could result in you trying to rush the job with the inevitable issues associated with doing that! I have also come to the conclusion, with the help of a customer/friend of mine, that "giving things away" serves neither you or your friends or your customers. My friends position was that I needed to charge for the goods other wise I would no longer be in place for him to get the things he needed later on. I think the same applies for you. If you can't afford to keep doing this work (because of free or near free work) then you will be out of business and all of those other people that relied on you to be there when they needed guitar parts or whole guitars now have to spend the energy and accept the risk of finding another supplier. So, if this is a business deal, work it like business, if you want to give him a great deal, tell him you will be building it over a very long time, working on it only when you feel that you have "free" time that was not otherwise committed. Then work out the price accordingly. Best of luck Don. Shane |
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| Author: | Blain [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:21 pm ] |
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Don, I find myself being very generous at times to my family and friends. Whether it be that I have extra money that I normally wouldn't have so I take everyone out to dinner and then am back at where I was before, or I spend a lot of time and/or money on presents for family and friends and then have to pinch pennies to pay off the debt. Sometimes being generous doesn't help as far as getting yourself financial gain, but I've always felt good each and every time that I've reached a little further to do something nice for someone that is close to me. I think you should do what you and your friend both feel is right, but also keep in mind that giving your friend the chance to purchase such a guitar at a savings from what it could be purchased for elsewhere, could also be considered a gift in itself. Good luck in making your decision. |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:50 pm ] |
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Wow, Don, this is a tough one. You're going to hand him a professional-quality instrument, regardless of his playing skills, based on all the work and preparation you've done before this. A guitar with this wood and this much "chrome" would easily sell for ten or eleven K, especially considering the time and skill that you'll have to put into it. Will you lose money from other sources by taking the time to do this? If so, that has to be factored in. You might consider this. What does he do for a living (you don't have to tell us)? How much time, at a professional rate (say, $30 - $50/hr--remember, you've been preparing for this for years!), plus expenses, will it cost you? If he took the same amount of time from his job, what would it cost him? If he would lose less by taking an unpaid vacation, then yeah, give him a deep discount, 'cause this purchase will hurt, and he's a good friend. If he would lose more, charge him a fair price, with maybe a little off for friendship. As has been said, people value what they pay for. On the other hand, if a low-ball price would take the pressure off of you so you can sleep better at night, then do that and don't tell anyone. It's really your business!
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| Author: | John Elshaw [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:57 pm ] |
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Don, Here's a completely different opinion. You can't control how he will feel about the guitar or price, and I find it hard to believe he will appreciate the guitar more by pricing it higher. So, I recommend you work the deal with the goal of making yourself happy, especially since you retired from building. How do you do this? Well, it's a proven scientific fact that the more you are paid to build, the lower your intrinsic satisfaction is going to be. You will feel like you are a slave to the almighty dollar again, and isn't that why you retired in the first place? I would charge him the cost of materials, plus the normal labor rate for a standard family build. When we work really hard at something, we aren't always expecting equal compensation. Sometimes we work hard at things just for the experience and the satisfaction of doing a job well done. If you want to feel great about yourself during the entire build, give him a great deal, but also know you are doing something worthy for a 'brother' and you will both be happy in the longrun. After all, years down the road when you're looking back on your life, you're not going to be wishing you charged this 'brother' more money, you're going to sit back and be proud of this great thing you did for a friend, and he will also likely appreciate what a great thing this friend did for him. I think if you charge full market rate, you will be stressing yourself the entire time thinking "am I charging too much?", and "am I putting a price on friendship?", and "does he think I'm charging too much for a friend?", etc. You get the picture. Charge him full price and it's the same as any other principal-agent relationship, it's just another transaction driven by money. Cheers! John |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:40 pm ] |
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Umm . . . Do you actually want to do all that pearl purfling? |
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