Official Luthiers Forum!

Well,

There has been a lot of discussion over the past few months about vacuum fixtures for guitar building. There has been a lot advice on how to make your own but many people would rather spend the time building guitars and just purchase the fixtures...except they are as scarce as hen's teeth! Well, I have teamed up with a partner to develop and produce a line of vacumm fixtures and other percision lutherie items. A warning, the vacuum fixtures are not that cheap but at least now they are available! Here are some pics of the prototypes that are actually my own fixtures. We will be 'cleaning up' the design a bit by softening the corners and such.

This is a picture of the dish with the lid sitting beside it. These dishes are about 24 inches square on the outside and are cnc milled from 3/4 inch acrylic. The lid in this picture is a glued together frame but we think that for the production models we will mill the lid from one piece of acrylic and will use the piece left from the middle to make bridge clamps.



Here is the system under vacuum with a test piece on my bench. For now we have black rubber but may change the colour if we can find what we are looking for for the right price.



This is a picture of my vacuum pump. Just so you know that you don't require an expensive or elaborate pump system to run these things, this one is built from an old refrigerator compressor and a 20 pound reservoir tank.



This is the start of my guitar holder. I will be designing a base for it that will be a wood/aluminum composite. We will probably make an all aluminum version very soon but still just offer just the dish so that you can make a fixture that best suits your working environment.



On the "percision tools" side of things we will also be offering fret scales made from 1/8 aluminum flatbar. Here are two that I had made for my guitars.



We will be designing and making other useful items as we get requests.

Now the prices! The dishes are $175 USD each, the lids will be $160. We have designed these so that the vacumm works from the lid so you will only need one lid, no matter how many dishes you have, for example I have 3 dishes, 15 foot radius, 25 foot raduis and 30 foot radius and just the one lid.

The guitar holder clamp is $110. When we have the base designed it will probably be in the $200 range, plus or minus.

The fret scales are $36 USD each and will come with a pin that can be installed into your fretting fixture. The slot width is .125 inches.

I would be interested to see how many of you would be interested in these products and would also like to know what other items you would like to see. We will be offering a bridge clamp and will have a prototype out in a bit. My partner will be tied up for the next couple of weeks so I have some time to get this all up and running. If there is interest I will also get a price together for the guages and hoses for my vacuum pump and do up a little schematic that can be included with the purchase of the hardware, or maybe I will post it up on my website...gotta think on that one a bit!

Thanks

Shane

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Canada

Seeing that interest has been low so far, I thought I should add a couple more pics that better show these dishes.

The first is a picture of the outline that is formed when the dish is milled. This is a 15 foot radius.



This is a close up of the milling pattern that allows for great vacuum. These grooves are quite shallow but are deep enough to allow the vacuum to distribute evenly throughout the dish.



I am really hoping for some feed back on these. I am thinking that they are a great addition to Luthery tools but they were expensive to develop and I would need to see that there was interest in this product before further development was completed. Again, these dishes already 'function' perfectly! I just want to 'pretty' them up a bit. We can make these to any radius requested. This 15 foot dish is about as extreme a radius one would go with 3/4 inch acrylic so if someone wanted a 10 or 8 foot radius the cost would be a bit more as we would have to jump up to 1 inch acrylic. Otherwise, your wish is what you can expect! Also, we are looking for any other ideas for vacuum bits or other things that you just can't find which we may consider.

Thanks and please give me some feed back!!!

Shane

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Canada

Shane,
looks great!

Will there be a bridge vacuum fixture?

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Shane:

I have, and use, a Don Williams built vac jig. But, last year, Don and I looked into doing something very similar to what you have done, except that our model was to use UHMW as the radiused base and top...so I understand completely your issue with the expense. Our intial prototype runs were terribly cost prohibitive, as we couldn't really find a CNC source that would help us develop without a high initial capital outlay. So we examined the idea, and let it go because we were, as they say, "short of funds".      Our original idea was to build both what you're building (radius is already built into the base), and a base that would allow builders to use their existing 24 inch radius dishes. Don ended up building four of the latter, I think, for various people.

Still, that said, if it's opinion you're wanting, here's mine: I believe these would sell. Like you mentioned in your initial post, commercially produced luthier specific vac presses are practically non-existent, and I personally believe there's a market for people (like me) who enjoy the process of building the guitar, but do not necessarily have a desire to build all the related jigs.

Well, there's my .02...which, after taxes, adjustments for inflation and the currency exchange rate is worth exactly...nothing.   

It's a great looking product, and your reputation is stellar. If I didn't have one, I'd certainly be interested.

Bill

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Bill,

That is the kind of input I was looking for, thanks! I was actually thinking last night about a set up to use existing radius dishes and may explore this further. The biggest issue with that that I see is that there would be a much larger volume to evacuate which would require a larger pump and/or more reservior capacity. I need to think on it a bit. Because the down side to this system so far is that you would still need your current dishes for sanding the rims to radius. The way I am set up that is not an issue but if you were on a budget it would start to add up. Then again, if it was time you wanted to save this would be a great way to go. Also vacuum gives you that uniform clamping pressure along the entire brace length. You can see from the pictures above how complete the vacuum really is. Anyway, thanks for comments Bill, they are worth a lot to me. As you say the start up on this is not cheap so I am gambling on some interest.

Peter, we will be doing the bridge clamps as well. I will get one done in the next couple of weeks, once my partner returns.

Thanks

Shane

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Canada

Shane:

Your fixtures look really good. My biggest concern would be keeping the lid flat. Once the vacuum is drawn it's not really an issue but it would be nice to keep it flat. If the lid is machined from one piece of rather than seperate pieces this might not be an issue. What thickness material are you going to use for the lids?

As for the dishes, I use 1" UHMW for bracing and 1" MDF dishes for sanding.   The only drawback to the UHMW is that it warps like crazy after machining so the dishes have to be bolted down. The advantage to using two seperate dishes is that you can modify the vacuum jig to accomodate registration pin holes, etc. Plus you don't have to waste sandpaper by removing and installing between operations. It cost a little extra up front but it is very convenient to keep them seperate.

I think your price is very fair. I just finished making several frames out of square aluminum tubing. The materials cost about 120.00 each. Then, I had to cut, weld, drill, and tap. So, once you add time to materials you're over 200.00.

Keep up the good work! Don

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Don Sharp
Got Brazilian?
http://www.sharpguitars.com

Shane
I would love a vac fixture. My only preference would be a vac fixture that
allow you to use your own dish. Similar to the one Don Williams has built.

Instead of one lid and multiple bases. How about hinged to one base that
you can add your own dish

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Shane,

I have a real problem getting bridge clamps in the smaller sound holes of ukes so I would be interested in a bridge vacuum clamp. One that has a small enough footprint that it could be used on a soprano uke yet large enough to be used for a baritone uke bridge. I'm not sure if a guitar bridge vacuum clamp would meet this criteria and I doubt you would have much of a market for something like this but if you would be willing to build one I would be interested.

As for the braces, I enjoy using the go bar deck and goofy as this may sound, I also like the look of one fully loaded with go bars. So unless I got into producing so many that the additional few minutes of time saved was important to me, I probably will stick with my go bar deck.

Don,

Thanks for the comments, I was a bit concerned about warping but with this acrylic (plexiglass) it is not really an issue. Both the dishes and the lids are 3/4 inch thick. The top and back plate of the guitars will be more flxible than these dishes so they should conform to the dish rather than distorting it. Thanks also for your comments on price, I too think that the price is fair but it is still adding more cost to building a guitar.

Andy,

I did PM you. As I said there, I have been thinking about this but do have some reservations in that there are a bunch of different dish configurations and sizes that would make this difficult. But more than that I am more concerned about volume inside the fixture that needs to be evacuated for the pressing to occur. I could though likely be convinced that it is worth pursuing!

Roy,

We can make a smaller bridge clamp for you, that would not at all be that big of a deal. When my partner gets back we will make up one for guitars and I will have those dimensions then and we can discuss how much smaller you would need it. As for the brace issue, I agree, I too like the go-bar system. The advantage to vacumm though is two fold, first is the even clamping pressure along the entire length of the brace rather than the point pressure of go-bars and second is that you can do things like pre-shape the braces as much as you like before gluing them down as the vacuum will clamp even the very thin ends of braces and will not damage the braces with go-bar marks. You probably knew all of this already.....

Thanks again for the comments...keep them coming, my partner and I really do want to make this work!

Shane

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Canada

Shane-
I wouldn't be too worried about the volume of air to be evacuated from a setup with a round dish.
I recently laminated a couple of backs and just slipped the 1.5 inch round dish/screen/back/plastic assembly into a large garbage bag and wrapped the bag around the vacuum hose.
The pump (JB FastVAc?) pulled the assembly down in about 30 sec with no reservoir to help. Using epoxy gives the luxury of long working time as well- and most folks gluing braces will be using a 'faster' glue..

For me, it's strictly a case of 'I don't get it' with vacuum clamping for braces (and even bridges) but it seems to be popular and your examples seem very well made. As others have mentioned, you have your well-deserved excellent reputation for quality and service behind you.
I do think there would be a market for a frame that used an existing 24 inch round dish. Making and selling a round 1-piece frame would be expensive, but you might figure out a use for all the cutouts.

I don't get the comment about removing the sandpaper. Why bother? Just lay posterboard (or nylon window screen) over the sandpaper to protect the top. (I assume you have tested your milled surface with a cedar top to make sure there is no imprinting.)

If you are going to market the fret templates, it might be useful to some folks to specify the calculation method you are using for the fret spacing.

I hope this doesn't side-track you from the wood cutting!

Cheers

John

Thanks John,

Nope...wood first! But I am also trying to get things together for other aspects of luthiery. Your comments about a bag system are good. That indeed would work well as does the frame for putting dishes in. I may still try this but it is quite expensive to just "try" these things out and can't really move to a bunch of options until the first couple are looking after themselves. I haven't tried a cedar top but I really don't think that dimpling will be an issue, there is still a lot of surface area supporting the plates.

Shane

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Canada

I wasn't suggesting the 'bag system' for braces (I'd be sure to move something out of place while putting the assembly in the bag), but it works fine for laminating plates. Somebody mentioned using a similar idea for laminating sides a while back.
John

Shane:

I'm with John, I don't think the additional volume associated with a 1.5" existing radius dish is much to worry about. I don't use a reservoir on my Gast pump, and it evacuates very quickly.

Yep, you've run into the same issue Don and I had: the issue isn't really finding a way to produce the jig, it's finding a way to eliminate the significant waste associated with making the unit completely out of UHMW (or some other suitable material). Our design would have used two 28" pieces with suitable pocket cuts in them, but the resulting waste made it cost prohibitive. We found a great UHMW supplier, with CNC capability, but they had cut minimums in place that made our prototypes too expensive to mess aroung with...in the end we bagged the idea.

I DO have an idea though that might be worthwhile. (Probably not, but hey, anything is worth examining, right?)

Let's talk offlist.

Bill

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

what sort of attachment point are you going to install on the work holder?

[QUOTE=Shane Neifer]
When my partner gets back we will make up one for guitars and I will have those dimensions then and we can discuss how much smaller you would need it.
Shane[/QUOTE]

Sounds good. I look forward to hearing from you about this.

Bill I will get a hold of you!

Michael, The prototype had a barbed hose fitting, but with my compound vacuum gauges I installed a threaded fitting, I think that this is the way to go, my fittings are screwed on with hand pressure for a positive fit and go and off very fast. But I would supply with whatever fitting was requested, as long as it wasn't something that I couldn't get or cost a fortune!

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Canada

sorry shane, i wasn't referring to the type of hose fitting, but rather whether was to be mounting clete, or predrilled hoes to which we could affix our own mount, etc.

AHHH! For the guitar holder! I really haven't got that far yet. As it sits the dish would come just as it is. Machined inside to a dish shape, a channel routed for the gasket and the gasket included and a hole drilled and tapped for the exhaust fitting. You would have to develope it further from there. I will be making this one I have into a holder with a base along the lines of LMI's but out of wood and aluminum. When we make the entire unit it will probably be all aluminum. Aluminum is easy to work with your carbide woodworking tools and drilling and tapping holes is simple also.

Hope that helps Michael.

Shane

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Canada

thanks shane. my shopmade wooden version has been mounted on a panavise and a power arm. there is no reason i couldn't drill and tap to do the same with the aluminium you will provide. what radius is it machined to and how thick is it?

Michael, I not sure of the radius but it is about 1/16 inch in 3.25 inches. I can tell the exact the radius when my partner returns. The gasket is substantial, it extends 5/16 above the plate so offers a great buffer in it itself. The plate is machines from 1/2 inch aluminum.

Shane

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Canada

Michael the radius is 10 foot. Along the extra thick gasket there is no way the guitar will ever come in contact with the aluminum....when used as designed .

We have also ordered a different membrane material and will prototype another lid with it before we are ready to go with these. I am expecting great things with it!

Shane

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Canada

Hi Shane,
Are your fret scales similar to Stew Mac's notched straightedge so they
could be used for checking the flatness of a fretboard?
If so, this is a tool I'd like to have in my stable.

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Christopher C. Cordle
North Muskegon, MI

http://www.yardsaleunderwear.com
http://www.facebook.com/christopher.cordle

Hey Chris, I guess it could certainly be used for that purpose. These scales are made from 1/8 by 2 flat bar aluminum so the edges are not machined. If I wanted to use it as you have described I would lay a piece of sandpaper from my thickness sander on a nice flat surface, like my tablesaw, and sand the edge, using the saw fence to keep the edge square. I would then check progress with my straight edge. Alternantvely we could probably machine the edges but that would cost more. But as Tony says.....nothing is impossible.....

Shane

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Canada