Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

joiner question
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=11388		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  jonhfry [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:49 am ]
Post subject: 

I want to buy a joiner to level off my neck woods for laminating, and for whatever else needs to be flat and straight. After pricing the tables and such, I was wondering what your thoughts were on using a hand held joiner for this.


I mean, couldn't I just mount the joiner in my vice and runt the board across and get a similar result as if I but a table. The table joiners are 400 bucks and up, the hand held ones are 150. I am just thinking if i can get a hand held one then, i could the small delta thickness planer too.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Levelling neck woods for joining.

John, these need to be very precise, and I'm sure a well executed planing job by hand could work.

I tried it one time, just thinning some backs and sides. Woah! That was a lot of work.

I soon attended an estate sale and purchased an old friend's 6" Atlas jointer made in Kalamazoo Michigan. I start there, but always end up on the abrasive planer, aka drum sander.

Good luck in your efforts to build guitar necks. Nothing more beautiful than a good handmade neck.
Author:  D Stewart [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:27 am ]
Post subject: 
I have to think that the longer bed of the stationary tool is critical to this type of work. Even with that it has to be set up with care to truely flatten the board and get surfaces that match up. I think trying to use the hand-held method would end up in frustration for what you want to do. Just my $.02 worth.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:38 am ]
Post subject: 
I am thinking you will need a jointer and a planer to make necks - I know I do, especially if starting from rough lumber (or at least a jointer and thickness sander) - a jointer only flattens a side, it will NOT make both sides parallel - thats what a planer is for. Otherwise you will end up with tapered pieces to laminate together - unless thats what you want
Author:  jonhfry [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:39 am ]
Post subject: 

I was kinda thinkin the table is what makes the big ones worth the cost. After researchin ebay and such I am finding that there are some cheaper table top type 4" jointers out there, more in the around 200 dollar range, so that is encouraging. I just wanted to make sure I didn't buy a hand held 150 dollar tool and then realise trying to save money just wasted money.


How do you flatten your surfaces true to put together? Will a thickness planer make the surfaces flat and true?
Author:  D Stewart [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:42 am ]
Post subject: 
There again, I think that you really need both a jointer and a planer. The jointer gives you a flat, true surface and then the planer gives you the parallel surface referenced from the jointed surface.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:43 am ]
Post subject: 
being the tool junkie that i am, i love my 8" grizzly jointer. it has a nice long bed, which isnt completely necessary for a guitar neck, but up until this point ive only built furniture. i would say the precision this tool offers is far superior to say i hand tool, or a bench top jointer, which i have also owned. hence the new 8". grizzly has some great buys on 6" jointers and you can also find them used at a reasonable price. the small delta thickness planer and other similar planers are a great value and work just great. i just upgraded from the delta 12" to a grizzly 15" for a number of reasons, but mainly because i am a tool junkie. these tools also take some monkeying with to get adjuted properly, but once they are... oh boy! anyways, if you have the money, these tools can last a lifetime.
Author:  RobertJeffery [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:43 am ]
Post subject: 
If you are thinking of mounting a power planer in a vice as a substitute for a joiner please think twice about there you would like your fingers...

I have squared up stock with a plane, It is a pain... A WELL set up joiner is worth its weight in gold! Again, watching very carefully where you put you hands and fingers.

Robert
Author:  Heath Blair [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:45 am ]
Post subject: 
and the others are right, to make stock square, you need both a jointer and a planer. open up that wallet!
Author:  gozierdt [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:37 am ]
Post subject: 
As others have stated, you need long tables to be able to joint surfaces straight and true. The safety issue is also a very real one. I'd watch the want ads near you for a used jointer. The 6" ones are quite plentiful, but a 4" would do for guitar building. I'd consider the jointer and my drum sander to be the two most useful power tools for guitar building, followed by the bandsaw and table saw.
Author:  jonhfry [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:49 am ]
Post subject: 

thanks,


I am finding some 4" table top jointers on ebay for less than 100 used, and some off brand table top 6" for not much more. I have had my eye on the performax 10-20 for a while, but I am starting to wonder if I really need it, or if a thickness planer would be more useful.
Author:  Steve Saville [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:52 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=jonhfry]

thanks,


I have had my eye on the performax 10-20 for a while, but I am starting to wonder if I really need it, or if a thickness planer would be more useful.

[/QUOTE] Get the drum sander and add a good table saw. Look at the 16-32 instead or the 10-20.
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:30 am ]
Post subject: 
stock can still be made square and true with hand tools; after all it was done for a few millenia. however the folks who did it were experts who did apprenticeships for years during which they did things like that as endless grunt work for the master, and had a powerful incentive to do it wellso they might avoid a cuff around the lug hole, or worse. this is considerably more difficult than thickness planing a top plate by hand.

speaking practically, unless you have that sort of time to acquire precision skills, using a jointer and a thickness planer is your best option. there are options as to how to acquire access however.

in many areas there are woodworking clubs which have fitted out workshops. do you have any friends who are woodworkers? they may grant you access to what you need, though you may have to help replenish the potables supply in the shop fridge, and rightly so.

for stock the length we use one of the relatively inexpensive benchtop jointers can suffice, and there are a few good ones, and that is usually determined by the quality of the fence9strength, rigidity and ease of adjustment), available. similarly, one does not need a top of the line, multi-speed planer, so long as what you get is good quality.




Author:  Blain [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:46 am ]
Post subject: 
I would go with the jointer and the drum sander if you can afford it. As was mentioned already, check the ads in the paper because some good stuff will come up every now and then.

I have to say that my planer is probably my least used power tool and I'll second what Gene said about the jointer and the drum sander being the 2 most useful power tools.

Don't know if this helps your situation or not, but I actually bought my jointer using nothing but credit card rebates (Citi). I got $100 just for getting the card and using it once within 3 months. That plus the 5% rebates on gas, groceries, and such added up to where I could cash them in for Home Depot gift cards. I just used the credit card for purchases that I would normally make and paid them off every month of course to keep from getting hit with the interest, so it was basically free money.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. Invest in good tools and you'll be happy you did.
Author:  Daniel M [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Like Michael said. If there's not a lot of runout in your top (GASP) the planer is usually safe to use for softwoods. Snipe is unpreventable with thin stock, so use some sacrificial wood in front & behind.
If you are looking for a used jointer, try to find an affordable one with an adjustable infeed as well as outfeed table. It really saves a bunch of hassle, especially after changing blades.
Author:  Daniel M [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
OOH, I miss that edit function... Cheaper jointers often have a fixed outfeed table. Speaking strictly personally, I hate 'em.
Author:  Martin Turner [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm old....and old fashioned....all my necks get squared up using a plane and a straight edge. Doesn't take a huge amount of time and with the number of guitars I pump out every year I cant justify buying a jointer or a thicknesser.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Jonhfry, my sense is that you should read a book or two on the use of woodworking machines, and maybe take a cabinet making class at a community college, so that you have an understanding of how these processes work, and what a good machine will do. Some lightweight benchtop machines can be set up to do a good job; others never will do it.

A hand-held power planer is not a jointer; it is a jobsite carpentry tool. The fact that you asked that question tells me that you need to step back from considering specific machine purchases right now, and get more grounded in wood machine basics.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would second Howard's advice.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:18 am ]
Post subject: 
I just want to add that there is a serious safety concern here as well. If you buy and begin using a jointer (note the "t") without first doing a thorough study of the machine, its purpose, its set-up, and its safe use, you will not only get bad results, you will very possibly lose a finger or two. The jointer is one of the most dangerous machines in the shop. Please don't be foolish and take this lightly.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:47 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Todd Rose] I just want to add that there is a serious safety concern here as well. If you buy and begin using a jointer (note the "t") without first doing a thorough study of the machine, its purpose, its set-up, and its safe use, you will not only get bad results, you will very possibly lose a finger or two. The jointer is one of the most dangerous machines in the shop. Please don't be foolish and take this lightly. [/QUOTE]
Good point, Todd.
I would like to put a plug in for safety as well...
I know several people who are missing the tip of their fingers from jointer "accidents".

I would also highly recommend looking at all the Fine Woodworking articles on set up,use and safety.
Taunton Press also publishes a book on power tools taht covers jointer and planer set up.

Someone said to use a back up board to prevent "snipe",
A properly set up Jointer or planer should not be cause snipe.Snipe is a sign that the machine is not adjusted properly.
On my 12" jointer (7 foot bed)I can get perfect glue joints,end to end on 8 foot plus long boards with zero snipe.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
I know for a fact that my Atlas six took off a finger up the first joint. My friend was happy when the flap of skin it left hanging was just enough flesh to cover the end of the finger for the sew-up.

On the positive side, he never had to cut the nails on that finger again. Small consolation. If this stuff were easy, kids would be building guitars.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Me, I like my Jointer. It's a big, wooden plane Steve Knight made, works a treat for flattening up neck blanks and joining body blanks for electrics. I am, however, building a thickness sander, because thicknessing by plane and keeping things parallel, when it comes to neck laminates, is a bit of a pain.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/