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| Two concerns/questions http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=11526 |
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| Author: | Chansen [ Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:54 pm ] |
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| Author: | Chansen [ Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:05 pm ] |
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Don't accidentally hit the return button as soon as you are finished typing the title. Anywho.... on to the concerns/questions.... #1 - I have checked all through the forum but I haven't found any instruction on how to build a radius dish. What is the basic radius you should go for on the top and back? I really can't justify purchasing at this time for $85 a pop. Probably worth it, but I don't think I'll be able to. Can you do without them all-together or should I attempt to make my own?? #2 - Molds- These look simple enough. Is there any trick I should know about before building this?? Thanks All!!! You guys have been great so far. I love the support here. |
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| Author: | outstrung [ Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:39 pm ] |
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For my first guitar I had templates, but had to make a mold. I used plywood, cut even pieces. Used the template to draw the shape. I cut 1/8 shy and used (idont know the exact name) a "spindle sander" circular sander that spins to get them to the correct shape. I glued them 4 high and used a few screws. At this point the mold should be in two pieces. Then used a scrap piece that isnt any taller than the mold, put the mold together dry and screw the scrap onto each end allowing you to glue your tops/back on and get it out of the mold by taking it back down to two pieces. Hope this helps. Im also pretty sure someone had topic not too long ago on making molds with pics of the process. It shouldnt be too far back in the archives. |
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| Author: | PaulB [ Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:53 pm ] |
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I bought the OLF plans for making a radius dish jig. They produce a first rate job - except for all the dust. I made mine outside, just after the neighbours had all washed their cars. No christmas cards that year 
I think I posted about it - it'll be in the archives. |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:25 pm ] |
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Hi Paul, Was the radius dish jig you referenced the "Bowl Profiling Fixture with Interchangeable Radius Guides by Michael Payne"? I would also like to make some radius dishes< Many Thanks, Max |
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| Author: | Terry Stowell [ Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:31 pm ] |
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ANyone who's made them will suggest making them outdoors. A good idea. They're not hard to make. I found making mine rewarding. Messy though! |
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| Author: | Bill Greene [ Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:34 pm ] |
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Max, yes, those are the ones. Also, I believe the archives will list several methods on which to create the dishes. It's doable, but messy. |
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| Author: | John How [ Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:43 pm ] |
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Radius dish making is fairly simple, you just need some sort of rail to guide your router over thde surface in whatever arch you decide on while your dish turns underneath. Lots of dust so definately do it outside and make sure your dish is secure and does not wiggle around while routing. If you have it secured in the middle to pivot, you will have to clean up that area by hand later but that is not really a problem. Have fun, I know there are examples and ideas on the web as that is where I found out how to do it. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:53 am ] |
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What kind of bit do you use for making radius dishes? A dishing bit cost between $50 - $80.00 anyway depending on size. Seems that $85 isn't a bad price for a dish already done...that is, if you only need one. |
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| Author: | Lillian F-W [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:21 am ] |
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I weighed the cost of the materials, mess and time, but mostly the mess and the cost and opted to have one sent to me. Being in the PNW, it isn't easy to find dry, breezy days on your day off during the Winter and Spring. I use a heavy duty dust mask, but there is still enough fine dust in the air afterwards to make me cough for a day or two (my lungs have been abused over the years and are now rather sensitive). |
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| Author: | Wayne Clark [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:19 am ] |
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It IS possible to build a guitar without a radius dish. Just pick up a copy of Cumpiano & Natelson's book to see how it is done. I think the radius dish makes things a little easier. If you search through the forum I think you will find people commonly use a radius in the 12 - 30 foot range. You will often see a larger radius used for the top and a smaller radius used for the back. MDF is a common material (though really dusty) although you will see some made from plywood. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:07 am ] |
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[QUOTE=WaddyT] What kind of bit do you use for making radius dishes? A dishing bit cost between $50 - $80.00 anyway depending on size. Seems that $85 isn't a bad price for a dish already done...that is, if you only need one.[/QUOTE] A straight bit works fine for these large radii. BTW, with shipping costs I don't think many folks can get a dish for $85. Those puppies are big and heavy, too. I bought a desk made of 1.5" MDF at an auction ($5)and it provided 2 dishes, 2 bending forms, and a mold as well. I'd rather spend my $$ on tools! Cheers John |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:13 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Chansen] #2 - Molds- These look simple enough. Is there any trick I should know about before building this?? [/QUOTE] There's nothing very tricky to making them, though there are distinct preferences in mold style (constant width vs hole in a large rectangle, etc). The assembly technique depends on the tools you have available- with a bandsaw (and spindle sander) you can just saw the mold out of a glued-up blank- this will give you a solid bending form as well. MDF can be tough on bandsaw blades, so it may cost you a blade ($20?) to make a few molds. Without a bandsaw you can use a jigsaw/sander to make the first piece and then a router with a bearing bit to duplicate the layers, then glue up. John |
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| Author: | Philip Perdue [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:14 am ] |
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Well, after a couple of attempts with few tools and fewer skills I gave up making my own radius dishes. I did not like the time it was taking or the results. And it will absolutely make a mess. You should check out one of the OLF sponsors Luthier Supplies who makes radius dishes. You can purchase 2 dishes for a total of $110.00 plus shipping. Very reasonably priced! If I figure my time and what I spent making them I’m probably even. On the plus side if I find I no longer need them then the dishes can be resold. So much of my cost will be recovered. Believe me no one would have wanted the ones I tried to build not even me. Philip |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:24 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Terry Stowell] Anyone who's made them will suggest making them outdoors. A good idea. They're not hard to make. I found making mine rewarding. Messy though![/QUOTE] Definitely not in the house- I agree with Terry on all points. For some of us, a garage workshop or shed is a possibility. You can organize a dust collector hose nearby, but a good breeze and a dust mask were the best aids for me. In spite of what you may read, this is not an item that requires machine-shop tolerances. You can clean up any small ridges with a sander quite quickly. I sealed my dishes with epoxy and filler as well. You will probably end up with sandpaper and then a posterboard/rubber/whatever pad over the dish surface anyway, so a few minor irregularities won't make much difference. The top/back aren't all that flexible anyway. A good DIY project, and you won't have to wait for delivery, either! John |
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| Author: | Chansen [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:26 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Aoibeann]I weighed the cost of the materials, mess and time, but mostly the mess and the cost and opted to have one sent to me. Being in the PNW, it isn't easy to find dry, breezy days on your day off during the Winter and Spring. I use a heavy duty dust mask, but there is still enough fine dust in the air afterwards to make me cough for a day or two (my lungs have been abused over the years and are now rather sensitive). [/QUOTE] I'm in the PNW too, so I can relate to the few dry days. Today is absolutely beautiful though!!! |
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| Author: | Chansen [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:29 am ] |
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Thanks all for the advice - I think I will give it a shot myself and if it turns into a disaster I will pony up and turn to the pros. So basically I just need a router huh? Well I will keep you guys posted! Thanks again! |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:54 am ] |
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[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie] BTW, with shipping costs I don't think many folks can get a dish for $85. Those puppies are big and heavy, too. [/QUOTE] Oops! Philip just straightened me out on this- you can get 3/4" (at the edge) dishes delivered in the US from Luthier Suppliers. John |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:56 am ] |
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edit button pushed here- Delivered for under $85 in the US..... |
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| Author: | jonhfry [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:24 am ] |
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For the radius dish, make sure when you do a search you look in the archives and not the current discussion. I asked this a while back, and actually had my first crack at it last night. Someone showed me their pics a when I asked (forgot who) but anyway check them out, this person did a real good job: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jakobgsp/detail?.dir=/3f3fre2& amp;.dnm=1117re2.jpg&.src=ph I used plywood, and though there was some dust, it wasn't too bad. I measured out the radius as in Cumpiano's book, two thumb tacs about 24 inches apart with a third thumb tac in the middle offset by about 1/8-3/16 and a piece of straight steel scrap bent by using the middle tac as a waist. That is how I made the pattern, then I traced it onto the boards for the side. I band sawed and sanded the guides that I placed on the sides and started routing. Then I set the router in the middle of the table, screwed the dish into the table in the middle loosely and just slowly pushed the router forward as I spun the dish. My first one is not a keeper, as my first of anything usually is not. I did it just to learn and after being intimidated by the thought of this job for weeks, found it was not too difficult. Mine did not look as good as the one in the pics above but it will do. (sorry I don't remeber who did the above jig, as I saved the address when I was shown the pics.) As for the mold, get a pattern cutting router bit. They are about 15-20 bucks at home depot and have a bearing installed above or below the bit which will ride on your good board and cut the other to the exact size. Then you just cut one half of a pattern out and the rest will go easily. I found patterns fun to make and am designing my own stool.
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| Author: | Chansen [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:30 am ] |
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Thanks Jonhfry! I just looked up pattern bits online and that will definitely do the job. |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:27 am ] |
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I make my radius dishes by calling Tracy - OLF Sponsor I make molds by calling John H - OLF Sponsor I know you can make them, but they have great molds and dishes. Well worth the price!!!! |
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| Author: | PaulB [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:33 am ] |
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[QUOTE=MaxBishop] Hi Paul, Was the radius dish jig you referenced the "Bowl Profiling Fixture with Interchangeable Radius Guides by Michael Payne"? I would also like to make some radius dishes< Many Thanks, Max[/QUOTE] That's the one |
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| Author: | Brad Way [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:51 pm ] |
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[Quote=jonhfry]Someone showed me their pics a when I asked (forgot who) but anyway check them out, this person did a real good job:[/QUOTE] Thanks for the kind words about my radius dishes. I really enjoyed the process of making the dishes. I would say that if you like building jigs then you will find the process of making them rewarding. If you don't like building jigs then the $85 is probably a decent price. Since I built several different sizes it seemed worth the effort. I know many have recommeded making the dishes outside but I put my dust collector right at the point where the routerbit contacted the wood and did it in my shop without creating too much of a mess. Good Luck! |
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