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I Quit!!!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=11629		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Kristopher10 [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:08 am ]
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Thanks everyone for the helpful information posted in this forum . There are some extremely talented individuals on this forum. I am a bit of lurker (for about a year) and have not posted until today. I am very frustrated and using this as an impromptu support meeting/venting session .
I sent a guitar out recently that I thought was a good guitar. The sound was beautiful, it was constructed well, the finish turned out well, and all was well in the world, so I thought. the customer gets it and is full of *helpful* and *enouraging* words. This was my 9th guitar and I realize I have a lot to learn, but I thought this guitar turned out pretty well. Here are some quotes: "Some part of the edge of sound hole is not painted,so there's white edge on some part of the hole". "I can feel the edge of the rosette on one part, butnot on the other (that side is very smooth). I can see
the outline there, seems the rosette is just a little
bit high (or low)" "one is the smear of the black
trim line, and there are some white short line on the
sides (looks like the wood stain didn't go in)"

To summarize, my ego is struggling and I feel like I should stop trying to build these darn things. I love it, but I cannot seem to satisfy my customers ...Does anybody else have customers that are very *detail oriented*, or do I just think too highly of my instruments?? Any encouraging (or not so encouraging words, what's the difference now) would be appreciated. thanks for letting me vent. (here are some pics of the guitar) I hope everyone is doing well...



















Author:  Kristopher10 [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:09 am ]
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Wow, those are huge (the pictures)...sorry about that
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:17 am ]
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Kristopher,
You have obviously came across a VERY detail orientated and picky customer. I have built for similar people. Although it can be frustrating, I have always viewed these type of customers as a challange, and used them as a means to push my self to get better.

Dont take it personaly. Learn from it, use it as a way to push your skill to a new level.

I think your guitar looks fantastic.

Welcome to the OLF!
Author:  Graham Steward [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:17 am ]
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I wouldn't give up if I were you. The guitar in the pictures is fantastic. I'm not sure why your customers would complain.
Author:  Chansen [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:19 am ]
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That is a beautiful guitar!
First off.... do you have payment in full?? Some customers I have (not in guitar building) like to use the smallest imperfections to hold back the remaining payment. Not cool, but it happens.
Some customers I'm sure are hypercritical but you definitely should not leave the biz. $$ may or may not have affected the response with this person as well. The more money it cost, the more people are going to want absolute perfection.

From what I can see, this guitar is masterfully made, and looks more like a 100th guitar. Don't be discouraged! Some people are impossible to please anyway.
Author:  Kim [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:22 am ]
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Welcome to the OLF Kris, good to have you out of the woods.

What a lovely looking guitar, she's a stunner, really, it is a fine looking instrument. As for the customer, don't be too disheartened, the world needs quite a few nit picking ungrateful customers who can just never be satisfied so we can better identify the good ones when they come along. Besides, stuff like that keeps you on your toes and helps prevent your head getting that big that you can't get in the shop to build the next.

Once again, great looking guitar.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:31 am ]
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Kristopher,
Don't this guy get you down, that is a fantastic guitar! But building guitars for classical players is probably the hardest group of people to please, so keep that in mind. Many of them are perfectionists. I'm just happy to have a guitar in my hand that sounds good. As long as it looks decent, then I'm happy. Why can't everyone be like that I also noticed you work in mental health, I think this would be the appropriate time to implement some of those skills. Best of luck building, you truly do have a great talent, and you should try to learn from this as much as possible, but DON'T quit!
Tracy
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:38 am ]
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Man, don't even think about quitting.  I am a classical player(not a very good one) and I would think that guitar would make someone a proud owner.  You can find flaws in any guitar if you look enough.  I have never seen anything in wood that was absolutely perfect.  Your coustomer is consumed with himself too much to appreciate your talent.


Your guitar looks great.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:49 am ]
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Kristopher,

Please do not take this wrong. This is meant to be educational not critical.

First thing;
Classical clients are traditionally pickier than the steel string clients for the most part. I will take that back! They are always pickier! They are a much more discriminating client.

Second thing;
With only nine guitars under your beltand selling your work, the frustrations you are feeling are to be expected. Ask me how I know this to be truth.

Third thing: I want to encourage you, not criticize you. But I would be less that honest if I did not say that if at this early juncture in you building, you find your self frustrated with negative critiques by your clients, then you need to set down and ask your self if you are ready to retail your work. As a great architect once said "God is in the details". We all make errors on each build. Learning to correct the errors before we send out an instrument is the attion to detail part of the craft. To a professional musician playing an instrument for a recording session; cosmetics mean near nothing. But to a client that drops down a large deposit and waits 4-12 months to get the guitar. Cosmetics will be the very first thing they look at.


Keep your chin up. Take critiques to heart and learn from them. Expect your clients to be discriminating. Learn from what they do not like. Do this with a open mind and you will become a fine luthier. If this was easy every one would be making a living at this.
Author:  CarltonM [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:05 am ]
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Kristopher,

No quitting allowed!!! Especially since you've turned out a guitar that, if I were still playing classical, I'd be proud to own. You even went to the trouble to compensate the nut! Your customer probably has the best sounding guitar in his town/county/state.

The problem here is expectations. First of all, get final payment before delivery, but offer a money-back guarantee. That leaves your client with the final decision, and if it sounds and plays good I bet he'd happily decide to keep it in spite of small imperfections. Especially if your prices are commensurate with your experience. He'll be getting a good deal! If he doesn't want it, I don't think that you'd have any problem selling it to someone else who knows a good thing when he sees it.

Before you accept any commission, make sure that your buyer knows what to expect. Be up-front about your experience level, assure him that you'll build the finest instrument you can, and offer a money-back guarantee. He can't loose! I think you'll get even more commissions that way.

Buyers SHOULD be picky. It's their money, combined with their hopes. I've searched for imperfections in every guitar I've ever bought, and they've all had at least one. I bought them, though, because other things outweighed the blemishes (usually playability and sound). I knew what I had when I brought it home. Until your guitars are in demand, people will look at them critically to make sure they aren't being cheated. If they have all the information they need at the start, they'll relax and, most likely, be very happy with what you deliver.

BTW, good photos!
Author:  Bill Greene [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:17 am ]
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Well I don't know you, and this is an anonymous forum (to a large degree) so I have no reason to lie:

Based on this one guitar alone, you have some serious luthiery chops. That guitar takes a back seat to nothing! From the detail in the headstock, to that compensated nut, to the detail on the fretboard end, the rosette, mitred purfling, wood selection...it's a gorgeous guitar, period. And you're building classicals, where picky takes on a entirely different meaning. You're building for the hardest to please customers around. And if it sounds as good as you say, take that little bit of critical review with a grain of salt, and learn from it.

But quit? Don't even think about that. It's ok to bump into a few picky customers, and that's fine, get sad about it, and then get back in the shop pumping out your next gorgeous guitar.

And don't wait so long to post photos of it, either. With skills like yours, you should be posting more around here to help the newbies.

Author:  Kristopher10 [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:18 am ]
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Very good folks...I knew you wouldn't let me down. Exactly what I needed. I am glad others have went through similar things and not *all* customers are going to be a PITA (I learned PITA in here, it took me a while, but I finally got it). I guess I am dealing with a hard group of customers... the classical crew. And thanks for the very encouraging praise...

MichaelP- I definitely hear you on that...I know my work is not perfect (or even darn good for that matter )and I have been trying to decide whether I am ready to retail my work. It is a difficult decision I think and one that should not be taken lightly. I sell my guitars relatively inexpensively because I know they are not top shelf yet. Maybe this is wrong...I am not sure. My hope is that the customer will get a nice sounding guitar, that is built reasonably well, and plays nicely. Not perfect, but worth the money hopefully . What do y'all think about this??

Anyway, thank all who chimed in and this is definitely a learning situation. I am glad I now have the support of the OLF...a wonderful and supportive group of builders P.S. Thanks for the claps Hesh, that means a lot.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:25 am ]
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If you quit then we need to form a big line behind you in the unemployment line.

Just kidding. Go ahead vent all you want. Picky customers are the norm, after all you charged 'em four grand for five hundred dollars worth of wood and steel.

Most of us building for others offer a 'satisfaction guarantee'. If they are not satisfied, we'll build them another one, or tend to the details that bother them. Practice makes perfect, well, perfect practice makes perfect.

Good luck, I vote you quit...............

venting................

and get back to building...............

You are good!
Author:  redennis3 [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:26 am ]
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First off, that is one beautiful guitar. As far as someone saying it has "blemishes" well a machine can build a perfect guitar, but human hands build caracter, one of a kind instrument, keep up the good work.


             and remember to keep it fun, Red
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:39 am ]
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[QUOTE=Kristopher10]
MichaelP- I definitely hear you on that...I know my work is not perfect (or even darn good for that matter )and I have been trying to decide whether I am ready to retail my work. It is a difficult decision I think and one that should not be taken lightly. I sell my guitars relatively inexpensively because I know they are not top shelf yet. Maybe this is wrong...I am not sure. My hope is that the customer will get a nice sounding guitar, that is built reasonably well, and plays nicely. Not perfect, but worth the money hopefully . What do y'all think about this??QUOTE]


I think you work look wonderful. Wished I could play it . I only gave you the same advise I got from a well renowned luthier years ago. He never told me I started selling my work too early but allowed me to draw that conclusion. Looking back now I know that I did. But like you I kept my pricing relatively low allowed my luthierie to pay for itself and be happy with that. I worked for me but I to endured some less than astounded clients in the first couple years. dedicating my self to correcting flaws was and is an ong oing process I must say however that every critical piece of feed back I got made me a better luthier. One thing I found that has helped greatly, and If you read back in the archives for the past few years you find I tell all new comers about the most important tools in my shop. A simple pencil and a spiral notebook. I Keeep detailed notes from the start of the order to the completion and beyound. I Review my notes, often daily. I add all accomplishments and difficulties. Truely my most important tools have been paper and pen.
Author:  Steve Saville [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:43 am ]
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I let them know up front that there will be blemishes. I tell them to expect a guitar that plays well, sounds good, looks good from a distance, but will not hold up well to close inspection. Then I work hard to make it hold up well to a close inspection, but I always fall short. I am getting better, but I'm sure I will never be very close to perfect.
I say that wondering if expectations are clearly set.
Author:  Kristopher10 [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:43 am ]
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Wow, this is fun!! Who would have thunk it??
Anyway, He did decide to keep the instrument and noted he had no intention of returning it. He noted he wanted to be helpful and point out *growing edges* that I may work on in the future. I sincerely thanked him for pointing out my lousy work and reiterated the return policy (3 days no questions asked return policy, lifetime guarantee against defects in materials and/or craftsmanship).

I guess another question is...How perfect are Y'all's (from Georgia, sorry) instruments when you send them out?? Some of things he so lovingly pointed out were issues that *could* have been corrected I guess, but I have fallen into the trap of trying to fix something and making in 10 times worse than when I started. When do you let well enough alone??

Author:  CarltonM [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:53 am ]
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[QUOTE=Kristopher10] I sell my guitars relatively inexpensively because I know they are not top shelf yet. Maybe this is wrong...I am not sure.[/QUOTE]
Not wrong--just right.


[QUOTE=Kristopher10]My hope is that the customer will get a nice sounding guitar, that is built reasonably well, and plays nicely. Not perfect, but worth the money hopefully .[/QUOTE]
Well, Kristopher, I think you're approaching this a little backwards, if you want to succeed. What you've written should be your customer's expectations. YOUR hope and quest should be to build the perfect guitar. It's unattainable, of course, but having that mindset is the only way to master the craft. See my post above.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:56 am ]
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the trick is knowing what, how and when to fix. Iyou try to repair a blemish and end up making it worse, my guess is you were not certin of the process before you started. Fixing issues that you hope a process will work on are the ones you do not want to tackel till you are sure of the process. That is real easy to say and harder to practice. That is typical of most truths in life. Don't knock yourself about the cosmetic blemishes to hard.(though I did not see any in the pictures) take the time to learn how to handel them. But alway take care of structural issues as you work. Those are the ones that can really bite. And when they bite they bite hard.
Author:  CarltonM [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:03 am ]
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[QUOTE=Kristopher10] He did decide to keep the instrument and noted he had no intention of returning it.[/QUOTE]
Excellent!

[QUOTE=Kristopher10]...reiterated the return policy (3 days no questions asked return policy, lifetime guarantee against defects in materials and/or craftsmanship). [/QUOTE]
Glad to see this. It's why your customer decided to keep the instrument--because you gave him the power to decide. Bet he'll be happy with it, too.
Author:  Anthony Z [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:51 am ]
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Those are some fine pearls of wisdom from Lance, Michael Payne and Carlton.

Kristopher that is a very fine looking guitar. Trying to look at it from the customers perspective – he probably thinks he is paying a good amount of money and that it’s within his purview to expect perfection. It’s good though that he meant it in a constructive fashion.

I built a commissioned Archtop with a big hummingbird inlay that had a tiny (I mean you really had to look for it ) hairline crack on a piece of MOP in the middle of the body. Customer told me he couldn’t accept the instrument with this flaw. I pondered what to do for two days to the point of distraction till I got a good piece of advice from a pro (Tony Karol) – he said just route out the piece and drop a new one in and get the guitar out the door.

Michael and you think classical players are the only picky ones!
Author:  James W B [ Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:54 am ]
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Hesh ,You are One smart dude.
                      James
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