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After about a year or so of trying to psyche myself up for building a drum sander, the fact that I'll have a little extra cash soon plus the realization that I could either spend my limited time this summer building a sander or building guitars has made me decide to go over to the buy-the-tool side.

So, now I have to decide which. I have limited experience with these beasts. I used a Delta 18" in someone else's shop - it was carefully set up I'm sure and did excellent work. I have initially thought of this machine or the Performax 16" because of worries about the double pass sanding that would come with the Performax 10/20.

The last extensive discussion here of these tools was back in December '06, and Hesh mounted a spirited defense of the 10/20. Given that I don't build that many guitars, there is a chance that this would suit me just fine.

I do plan to do some more furniture-oriented work as well, and would like to be able to sand table tops too. But, in the past, I've done flat surfaces this size with a #7 and scraper plane, with only light extra sanding, so I'm not sure I need to make a choice with this as a crucial constraint. Having a 16" or 18" would provide the option, though. (I note that if I opted to build a homemade one, it probably would have had an 18" drum supported on both ends, so that would have been a single-use tool when it came to guitar/furniture options.)

What do you like in the 16" and 18" range? Should I really be thinking about the 10/20 too? I wish the December discussion had convinced me one way or the other, so that I didn't have to bother you with the question again.

Jim

p.s. I built a fretboard tapering jig last night that I'm pretty happy with. I'll describe it in a separate thread after I take some decent pictures of it this weekend.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Thanks Hesh - sure makes the mental gears grind. Less space is good! $550 instead of $900 is good! Accuracy is good!

I have plenty of dust collection in the garage, where all the machines are, so I can handle this or a bigger machine no problem. I don't really have room for another dedicated
floor machine (even on wheels), so something that can be stowed is good.

Do I want to be able to sand table tops? Grit teeth, furrow brow, can't decide.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Jim/Hesh,

I'm also looking at a drum sander and the Perf. 10/20 looks like it might be a great option for the 2-3 guitars I build a year. I'm curious, do you guys think the performance might be more consistent due to the shorter drum length? I'm thinking a 10" drum might be easier to maintain since the amount of variance on the free end might be less critical than if the drum were 18 or 20" for example. Does that make sense? Also, how much cfm does your dust collector need to put out to safely use one of these in the basement, assuming I wear a mask and run my 1700 cfm air filtration system for a couple hours afterwards?

Cheers!

John    

I'll put in a plug for the Performax (now Jet) 16-32. It's wide enough to
sand most plates in a single pass, relatively easy to adjust and keep
running smoothly and accurately, and has in the past offered superior
customer service. I used one for literally a hundred instruments plus jigs
and fixtures and occasional household projects. For the relatively little
difference in price between the 16" and 10", there's no real question. I've
moved up to the 25" Performax which is better in some ways but not
necessary for anyone not building full-time.

The 10-20 is probably fine, though it's more of a hobbyist tool. It seems
to use the same drum and rollers as the 16", just cut short. I thought of
getting one for bindings, rosettes, and other small items (to save on
sandpaper), but it has the same 6" minimum length as the big machine so
I decided against it. After using the 16" and 25" sanders, I wouldn't be
happy with only the little machine while the larger ones will do everything
the little one does.

And dust collection is essential both for health reasons and to keep the
sandpaper open. Running even a short piece without good airflow over
the drum clogs the paper and burns the workpiece. Besides, let's try to be
professional here. If you're going to make high quality instruments, you
need to make the commitment to do it right -- good lutherie education,
good manual skills, learning about the machines, and working in an
efficient and healthy environment.

John - Certainly the 16/18's have a much longer moment arm than a 10 - an equivalent force acting on the arm's end is exerting a lot more torque at the supported end. They could well be relatively less stable for that reason.

My dust collector is pulling about 1300 CFM (at least according to specs), so I'm not too worried in that area.
The system is gated so I can close off everything but the sander when I'm running it.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I have the Performax 16/32 and am pleased with it. The reason I went with this one over the 10/20 model was because I didnt want to have to pass tops and backs through twice. I have all ideas that it would do the job just fine with 2 passes, but I didnt want to do it.

I have a 650  CFM dust collector system, but the one advantage is that the exhaust blows out into the chicken yard... they love to scratch around in the sawdust and wood chips   ... it virtually dissappears as fast as I can blow it out there.

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Reguards,

Ken H

I know I've got Tim Taylor disease - more power - but have yet to regret buying the bigger machine when I have a choice.  I have the 22/44 with a closed base, which is a very nice machine.  When compared side by side with a 16/32 the difference is pretty dramatic - its beefier machine in every way.  The 16/32 with an open stand weighs approximately 160# and the 22/44 is almost 300#. 

BTW buy the paper in bulk rolls and not from Perfromax/Jet.  You can get bulk rolls from a a number of sources for less than half what you'll pay for factory brand at your local Woodcraft store. 

Doug

[quote=Hesh]Hi Jim – I’m going to mount yet another spirited defense of the Performax 10-20 Plus here and hope that Billy does not pick-up on this statement……. [/quote]

     Am I supposed to hate the "Performax 10-20 Plus" or are you refering to an ethanol induced defense ???

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Thanks guys - I think it's going to be the 16/32.

Wouldn't you know that they were on sale at Woodcraft LAST
weekend, when I wasn't all charged up about them    At least there is still a $50 rebate in play.

Doug - any example of those sources for bulk rolls? (What's the attachment system for the Performax anyway?)

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Jim, I'll chime in here on the other side of the coin than everyone else.
I had a 16/32 and HATED it. The table came out of square/flat. That took me months to figure out why I was getting such bad snipe on my boards. After I shimmed it, it was better but still not what I expected for $1K. Because of the design of the head (which is very poor in my opinion) it can be very tricky to get it to sand level with the table surface. Unlike Hesh, mine did not come set up well and I had to spend a lot of time tinkering with the head to try to get it level. Then, if I were to hog off too much wood (and let's face it, we all take too deep of pass at some point) the head would actually flex and the sand would be uneven. As you said, this would be helped with the shorter 10" model.
The stinkin' circuit protector would trip just about every time I would use it. Often times it would trip just from turning it on.
Hopefully I got one made at 3:00 on a Friday and I'm an isolated case. But I wanted to give you something to look out for before you drop that kind of money.
Good luck in your search. Paul

Oh, thanks Paul, now I'm back where I started

What a gruesome decision. I can see there being a range
of feelings about a given tool, but it seems like with these, people either love what they get right out of the box, or they get a dud and never get it to be quite right.
What's a consumer to do?   

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I have looked at these drum sanders in the past and was tempted to get one. I'm using a Wagner planer and sanding disc on my drill press right now but I might take the plunge someday. Paul, just curious....What do you use now??

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

I buy most of my sandpaper - disks, rolls, sponges, etc. - from Uneeda, which caters mostly to the commercial customer, but are happy to sell to anyone.   Their website is www.uneeda.com/index.asp . They happen to have a warehouse near where I live, but ship anywhere.  You'll be buying in bulk - 100 disks at a time minimum, 150' rolls, etc.  Pricing is very good.  Seems like the last 150' x 3" roll I  bought was around $40. Discs run $5 to $10 per 100.

BTW I really like Mirka screen discs, but they are VERY expensive.  You should try them if you haven't already.  They're especially good for doing work with the finer grits - 320 and up.

An online seller that is a little more consumer oriented is www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/3indrsaro.html.  Their 50' rolls are 25% to 30% below list. 

Doug

Hey Jim,

I know this is a little bit more money but have you seen this form Chesapeake woodworking

http://www.cheswoodsales.com/images/FLYER_US.pdf

Page 7, the general, 24" single drum sander. Good sale price.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=Rod True]Hey Jim,

I know this is a little bit more money but have you seen this form Chesapeake woodworking

http://www.cheswoodsales.com/images/FLYER_US.pdf

Page 7, the general, 24" single drum sander. Good sale price.[/QUOTE]

Hey Rod, that General looks pretty nice. Do you have one?

Alan.

No I wish, but if I had that much $ I'd most likly squeeze a bit more out of the account and go for a double drum.

Graham Stuart (OLF member and oil patch monkey) has a double drum that I want to see in action soon. He lives close to me.

I think Bruce Dickey and Paul Woolson also have a general double drum IIRC.

But this sure looks like a good one for the money. Just need a sled to pass thin plates through it. Can easily be made from a piece of plywood and some 120 grit.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod - More money, more space too.

Frank Finnochio had one of these (maybe the double drum) set up in his shop, with course paper, and had the Delta 18" with 120 grit on it for final sanding. Quite a team. The controls on the big machine were quite nice.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu