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| Turning pins http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=11716 |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:12 pm ] |
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Have any of you ever turned your own bridge pins or end pins? If you know of an online tutorial, or could explain the process that would be great. I am curious about how you get all the pins uniform, the tapers at the correct angle, etc. |
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| Author: | JBreault [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:10 am ] |
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Brock, I would suspect you'd use a pattern. Kind of like when you have to turn a bunch of bannisters the same. That or you'd set your tool rest at the proper taper and make sure you follow it exactly. I've looked for instructions on line and have not been succesful. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:19 am ] |
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I would use something like a Sherline lathe for this. You can set the cross slide at an angle to cut consistent tapers. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:22 am ] |
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Sounds like a job for a CNC lathe. Even with a metal lathe I can't imagine getting anything consistant. |
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| Author: | Bobc [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:23 am ] |
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Brock I would think that a tool bit ground with the correct taper and profile mounted on a crossfeed using a plunge cut to a stop would be the easiest rather than turning the profile. At least that's what I picture from my machine shop days. Of course with todays CNC technology I could be all wet. 
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:48 am ] |
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I believe the fossil ivory guy uses a Sherline. If it works for him... |
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| Author: | Cocephus [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:36 am ] |
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I made a few and found that buying them outright outweighs the time and trouble of making them yourself. That is, unless you`re gonna make a million pegs or so 
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:56 am ] |
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My thought was to make them out of woods not commonly available as pins.... But maybe it isn't worth the time or trouble. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:03 am ] |
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Brock, I asked that a while back and got a good response here. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:12 am ] |
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This from an ignorant NUG, but it seems to me that making a little jig using a reamer with the proper taper, and using a very sharp blade set at the proper angle, like a pencil sharpener would handle the taper part fine. The head, shoulders and groove, now those are a different problem. I'm sure you'll all inform me why that won't work, but if you can spin the dowell or say, octagional piece( cut with a saw) in a drill press, you could shape the head & shoulders with a file/files, then use the "taper cutter" to do the taper and grove with a dremel tool. |
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| Author: | John How [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:15 am ] |
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Perhaps something akin to the old manual, poke it in and turn it pencil sharpener |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:19 am ] |
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Take a look at this from Frank Ford. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:25 am ] |
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[QUOTE=John How]Perhaps something akin to the old manual, poke it in and turn it pencil sharpener[/QUOTE] Exactly! Not really my idea, but I remembered it from Coumpano's book - He used the method to make his tapered pins for his neck joint. Don't know why it wouldn't work for this. You could even mount the "sharpener" jig in the vice of a drill press and using a slow speed, use the quill to lower the pin into the "sharpener". This would probably have to be done before shaping the head, but we're talking about pretty hard woods, and chuck jaw marks could be cleaned up by hand after shaping the head. This method is not to make them in volume, but for 6 or 12 at a time. It might work. |
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| Author: | Dave Rickard [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:29 am ] |
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I have made some on an Okuma LB 15 CNC lathe. They were made out of aluminum, brass and tool steel. Personally I wouldn't want to run wood on my lathe; I think it would be hard on the way cover seals. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:34 am ] |
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[QUOTE=SteveS]Take a look at this from Frank Ford.[/QUOTE] Way more sophisticated than my version, but it gave me an idea. You could make a tapered collet out of a piece of hardwood dowell, using the the taper mill, slot it with a saw, to hold the pin after tapering. That would eliminate chuck jaw marks. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:51 am ] |
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Believe it or not, Paul, there were bridge pins before there were CNC machines! 
Re Frank's site: All that cool machining and setup ends up being for chucking up a pin (which apparently already has its head turned). Then Frank cuts the taper freehand. But cutting an accurate, repeatable taper is the problem. A nifty chucking system is . . . well, nifty . . . but it's not the solution to the problem. I've turned some pins freehand, and it is very difficult to get the taper right. I'd say you need a lathe that has a cross and compound slide for cutting tapers, or else just the cross slide and a tool that has the entire pin profile cut (as BobC suggested). For just doing the taper, you could maybe get a violin peg shaper that is adjustable, or make one along those lines. Kind of a basic single blade pencil sharpener. But getting the knife presented at the right angle to the work so that it cuts cleanly without chatter is not easy--I've tried. And then you still have to turn the head and collar. When I get the new shop built (still hoping for this year) I will make room for a small lathe and mill. But I have absolutely no training or experience on metal working machines. I was educationally disadvantaged by being tagged for the college track in high school. Once you got that higher ed stigma, it was hard to get into the metal shop class. A classical builder in Spokane, Eric Saelen, told me that getting a mill and metal lathe is a good way to use up all the free time you don't have, so I'm a little wary. Please suggest some other guitar parts that I could make with these machine, so I can persuade myself to do it and justify the expense. 
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| Author: | Billy T [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:22 am ] |
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[quote]Please suggest some other guitar parts that I could make with these machine, so I can persuade myself to do it and justify the expense. [/quote] I've worked on CNC Mori Seiki's down too little Hardinge second operation machines and if I could afford it I'd have a million of'em! Mill's and lathes have never been regreted! If I had a mill I would make everything on it!!!
In quick little operations I've even turned things with drill motors in wood. There's all kinds of way's to skin a cat(so to speak)
The beauty of tapers is, in diameters, you don't have to be extremely accurate. I don't know what your situation is for tools but clamping an existing pin and truing for runout could easily be used as an angle quide. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:38 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] Please suggest some other guitar parts that I could make with these machine, so I can persuade myself to do it and justify the expense. [/QUOTE] You could make tuners, capos, case latches for cases, rosettes, bridges, pins, nuts, saddles, and probably more.
I think the most useful think about a mill and lathe will be the ability to make tooling. Please be careful. Those machines can be very dangerous. There is a huge amount of energy stored in a 4 jaw chuck spinning at 2000 rpm. |
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| Author: | John How [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:43 am ] |
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If you figure out how to make the taper, such as the pencil sharpener idea, then you could make a matching tapered chuck also out of wood and install it in your drill press and turn the head fairly easily I would think. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:50 am ] |
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[QUOTE=John How]If you figure out how to make the taper, such as the pencil sharpener idea, then you could make a matching tapered chuck also out of wood and install it in your drill press and turn the head fairly easily I would think.[/QUOTE]
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| Author: | Louis Freilicher [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:32 am ] |
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I would do this on a metal lathe using the compound rest to cut the taper and a form cutter to cut the profile on the pin head. Something like this: 
These cutters are for Bacon style banjo nuts that I make on my South Bend lathe, not exactly a bridge / end pin but that’s how I would approach the job if I wanted to make more than one. I ground the cutters using a bench grinder and some small diamond burs in a flex shaft tool. It took the better part of a day to grind the two cutters, but now I can whip these things out real fast. Louis |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:46 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Billy T] [quote]Please suggest some other guitar parts that I could make with these machine, so I can persuade myself to do it and justify the expense. [/quote] I've worked on CNC Mori Seiki's down too little Hardinge second operation machines and if I could afford it I'd have a million of'em! Mill's and lathes have never been regreted! If I had a mill I would make everything on it!!!
In quick little operations I've even turned things with drill motors in wood. There's all kinds of way's to skin a cat(so to speak)
The beauty of tapers is, in diameters, you don't have to be extremely accurate. I don't know what your situation is for tools but clamping an existing pin and truing for runout could easily be used as an angle quide.[/QUOTE] This sound really positive, Billy. I wish I knew what you were saying. |
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| Author: | Shawn [ Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:59 am ] |
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I have turned tuning pegs for flamencos and end pins for historic guitars but never tackled something as small as a bridge pin. Violin family tuning and end pegs are typically fitted to the instrument by using a tapered reamer and then a "pencil sharpener" like tool that saves the peg to the right taper as it is very common for pegs to get worn or out of round and slipping is a problem when performing. IF you take a look at luthier supply catalogs that sell tools that cater to violin family instruments you will see what they look like. Theoretically it would be possible to make a scraper with the right profile and use it to refine pins and pegs that are turned on a mini-lathe. One famous guitar builder/ instructor who used his milling machine for almost everything was Art Overholtzer. He had been a machinist before becoming a guitar builder so it was logical to him. He would create forms for his guitars but because his background was not woodworking he would cast them aluminum and then machine it to final state. Long before the Fox bender, his molds were electrified so that the wet wood (back when people drowned guitar wood before bending) and then the wood was bent in the heated form. His books are a classic and even though some of his building techniques are outdated, he was a trailblazer that got alot of people building guitars. I have one of his heated dread forms and am trying to collect some of the rest of his forms and jigs to building an Overholtzer tribute guitar, so if anyone has any of his jigs or forms, pm me. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:37 am ] |
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Shawn, I have Overholtzer's book, and it is very interesting. I bought it back in the early '80's after reading Sloan's book "Classical Guitar Construction". You could tell his theories were very different from others in the business, but he covered a lot of specific building specifics in a lot of detail. I think I learned a lot from reading it. I havn't practiced any of it, but it was still very informative. I actually re-read it a couple of months ago after reading Coumpano's book. Interesting comparisons. Sure would love to have one of his bending forms for a classical. They were pretty neatly designed. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:21 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Billy T] The beauty of tapers is, in diameters, you don't have to be extremely accurate. I don't know what your situation is for tools but clamping an existing pin and truing for runout could easily be used as an angle quide.[/QUOTE] I think I get it--I could set the angle of a straight blade in a toolpost and use the cross slide to cut the taper. But diameters as well as taper are critical for a bridge pin. Thanx Billy |
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Didn't I say that? It was back a few posts.