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Other than a few minor differences in scale length and 12 vs. 14 fret configurations, what are the main differences between an OM sized guitar and a 000 sized guitar? I guess what I'm really wondering is what type of playing style/music would somebody prefer an OM size for as opposed to 000, and vice versa.

Thanks!

John

I think it is Todd who says the only difference is the nut width. I'm building my first OM now, Kindead's OM, 14 fret, nut width of 1 11/16". Seems though that Todd said 1 11/16" nut is an OOO.    Personally I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference. It does just seem to be in the details. (Unless I missed something)

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I think the 000's I build have a slightly longer body than an OM...is that normal? I think so. They also have a slightly different shape to them, does that affect tone, well everything else seems to. There seem to be many different depths used on 000's some are quite thin, others more like a standard OM.

Cheers,
Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

   There are a number of differences between them. First off is scale length . All OM's are long scale. while some 000's are long and short.Neck width is often 1 11/16 on 000 and 2 1/4 on the 0M. Sound hole is different as it is scale length oriented . as you can see there is more than you may think.
   There are bracing differences of width and scalloping. Pickguard shape is another. Both do have the same body length. There is no difference there.
The OM is built off the 000 body.
john hall
blues creek guitars

I posted this a few weeks ago. Might be useful.



From left to right: Martin OM-28V, 000-28 Norman Blake (12-fret, 24.9 scale on the 000 14-fret body), 000-28 12-fret. The body/neck joins are aligned, to show approximate relationships of bridge locations and body lengths, though the butt ends of the left two should really be even.


String spacing on the 14-fret 000 at bridge 2-1/8", neck width at nut 1-11/16"

String spacing on the OM at bridge 2-1/4", neck widthe at nut 1-3/4"

12-fret 000 is even wider, by another 1/16", IIRC.

OM seems better for fingerstyle, more space between strings at the nut and bridge.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

[QUOTE=tippie53]    There are a number of differences between them. First off is scale length . All OM's are long scale. while some 000's are long and short.Neck width is often 1 11/16 on 000 and 2 1/4 on the 0M. Sound hole is different as it is scale length oriented . as you can see there is more than you may think.
   There are bracing differences of width and scalloping. Pickguard shape is another. Both do have the same body length. There is no difference there.
The OM is built off the 000 body.
john hall
blues creek guitars[/QUOTE]

What about the difference in tone between a short scale 12 fret 000, and a long scale 12 fret 000?

The reason I ask is 'cause I'm building a 12 fret 000 off of the stewmacs plans. They're long scale. I happen to have a great fretboard blank that'd only be long enough for short scale, so I'm thinking of shortening the scale length so I can use this piece. The guitar body will be mahogany/adi, it's primary use would be for fingerstyle.

How would that effect tone? Other than moving the bridge plate and the braces, what other factors should I consider? (soundhole?).

There are different length bodies on 000 guitars....I use the longer body designed for a 12 fretter for 13 fret guitars. It is true that the body length for the 14 fret OM & 000 are typically the same length.

Martin 000-12 Fret Guitars

Total Length 39 5/8"
Body Length 20 9/16"
Body Width 15 1/8"
Body Depth 4 1/8"

Martin 000-14 Fret Guitars

Total Length 39 13/16"
Body Length 19 3/8"
Body Width 15 3/16"
Body Depth 4 1/8"


Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

    The OM and 000 are built in the very same body molds and to identical
depths at the Martin factory.

    The only differenc between the two models is the scale length. Either is
available with 1 3/4" nut and the subsequent string spacing adjustment
so nut width isn't a separating dimension. Neck shape preferences and all
other details are available on both models with the exception of some
signature model specific details and options.

    The bracing placement is adjusted to accommodate the scale length
difference since bridge placement is different for each to provide proper
tension load disbursement and intonation.

    I've owned and built lots of both and prefer a 000 because of its lower
string tension that comes with the shorter scale. There is a tone dfference
between an OM and 000 tht would be expected with the longer scale and
higher tension of the string set.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

    I should have, but forgot to mantion in my previous post that 000
models can now show up with a 25.4" scale length, but ony in the lower
end laminated models. A "real" 000 which includes 000-18 and up in the
Martin model list will still show a 24.9" scale length.

   The leaking of the longer scale from the OM over into the 000 model
came back in the late 80s and early 90s while i was still working there at
Martin. With the introduction of all of the 1 models with their low price
and equally low cost appointment lists and those laminated sides and
backs. The price point at which the guitars were offered just required as
much consistency from model to model as possible and scale length was
one of the unified dimensions.

    I love a true 000 with its short scale.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I like the looks of that Norman Blake model, I have`nt played one but I bet it sounds great with the bridge located further down over the lower bout like that.

Matt

I have a Martin 000-16SPR. This guitar is a 14 fret, 25.4" scale and 1-11/16 nut width. It is solid EIR and it is made with a gloss finish. In many ways it isn't very much like any other 16 series. It has scalloped braces too. I don't think Martin makes a 14 fret 25.4 scale with a 1-3/4 nut that isn't called and OM. The OM's have a smaller pick guard so you can tell an OM from a 000 from across the room.

A few years back I looked up the dimensions of every Martin 000 and OM in their catalog and all OM's and only OM's had the 14, 25.4, 1-3/4 parameters. Of course, discontinued models weren't listed.

Todd,
   OMs are available only with the 25.4" scale while the 000 can have both
scale lengths depending on the style. You will find that the only 000s with
the longer scale will be the lower end more recently introduced styles.

    I was working there when Martin started to use the longer scale on the
000s for the first time in many years. Before the early 90s, there was no
offering of 000s models with a 25.4" scale since the 30s. It was the
primary diferentiating detail between the OM and 000 once they were
established as permanent models in the Martin line.

    With the 000 and OM going through periods of being discontinued and
reintroduced back in the late 20s to the mid 30s, it seemed as though
they were trying to figure out which one would sell best with the most
solid staying power.

   I'm always amazed at how many signature and special ot limited edition
models are introduced each yer by Martin. It's a real treat to check them
out and see how many of them I'm able to get my hands on to play at the
plant in Nazareth. I've gotten to play many before their availability was
even announced and have even played a few that never made it to the
model line after the protos were made.

   They're a great company with a history that has taken enough twists
and turns to keep us all guessing forever.

    Oh...there was never a fire in any of the Martin plants....ever. Just for
everybody's information.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars    

You see I think we can all get a bit too precious about Martin's designations and variants when defining OM and OOO. To me if it's 14 fret, long scale, solid head, it's OM. If its short scale, 12 fret, slot head it's OOO. Simple.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

That sounds pretty good to me.  I asked someone at the MAGI meeting what an SJ was(I don't know much about steelstringers).  So where does a Small Jumbo fit in your equation?

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Waddy

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it's confusing because at one point in time, the Orchestra Model label simply denoted that a guitar had 14 frets. So you had D18 OMs.

However, most folks agree that an (standard) OM has the following defining features:

14frets to the body
1 3/4" neck with 2 1/4" bridge spacing
Long 25.4" scale length
small pickguard (except prototype)
lack of top brace under the fingerboard

I think I got all the points there- but correct me if I'm wrong!

Warmest regards,
Terence

wadi, i had to have a chuckle at your mystification about the sj designation. until i came onto the forum an sj to me was a gibson j45 sun burst model known as the southern jumbo, and often so stamped on the inside of the back. i had to ask what folks were talking about too.

[QUOTE=Colin S] You see I think we can all get a bit too precious about Martin's designations and variants when defining OM and OOO.[/QUOTE]
Colin, my friend, I'll have to disagree with you a bit on this. Though in the greater scheme of human existence these things are meaningless, I think it's important within disciplines to champion proper terminology. With fast communication technology (how many miles/kilometers apart are you and I?) we have an opportunity to inform and educate that is historically unprecedented. Maintaining constants in terminology avoids confusion, and in the case of Martin's OM/000 designations, it's incredibly simple.

People actually hunger for codified terms. Take the above mention of the "SJ" body style. We get a comment/question here every two or three months about what measurements determine an SJ. However, there is no prototype Small Jumbo guitar on which everyone can agree. I'd say Gibson's J-185, others might look to Olsen's signature body style. Even within J-185 models, though, changes are frequently made by Gibson, so once again, it's every man for himself. You could call one of your lute models an SJ, and no one could truely point out to you where you're mistaken. It'll never be resolved, and that bothers people.

Communication among like-minded craftsmen here should require that we all know that a "butt wedge" is more properly called an end (or tail) graft. We all need to know that a head block is also a neck block; that a headstock is also a peg head; that sides and ribs are the same thing; that a fingerboard and a fretboard are synonymous; how quartersawn differs from flatsawn; what bookmatching means; that tuning machines are often called tuning pegs; and that a twelve-fret, short-scale OM doesn't exist. The more we can agree on teminology, the better we can communicate.

[QUOTE=CarltonM] we all know that a "butt wedge" is more properly called an end (or tail) graft./QUOTE]

Carlton:

I didn't know what an SJ was, really, but I was sure that a "butt wedge" was more properly called a "wedgie".

Sorry, I couldn't stop myself.  Absolutely no self-control!

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Yeah, Hesh, but you were wrong!  The chant is an OMMMMMMM! 

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=WaddyT] Yeah, Hesh, but you were wrong! The chant is an OMMMMMMM!
[/QUOTE]

Waddy, you are both wrong.

Its   ohmmmmmmmmmmmm.

You're supposed to be quiet while you contemplate your navel or the meaning of life.

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Aoibeann

How many of us began our journey down this road of lutherie with an OM/OOO or something of that nature?

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Aoibeann

[QUOTE=Aoibeann] How many of us began our journey down this road of lutherie with an OM/OOO or something of that nature?[/QUOTE]

Not me, I'm too LOUD!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Ahhh This place is like nature , we can all see the beauty that comes out of trees and like where there are trees there are bound to be a few NUTS
   Go to shell
Ahhhhhhhhhhh I love you guys ,
now to get serious , the OM and the 000 do have some differences. Mostly in a nutschell . the basic difference is the scale and bracing. I am looking for the site where the differences are noted. Martin infact has a prototype OM shortscale to add to this confusion.
   I think it isn't too far to say the basic OM is long scale 1 3/4 nut 1/4 bracing   000 is short scale 1 11/16 nut 5/16
john hall