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a case for a Zero fret
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=11870		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Tue May 01, 2007 7:49 am ]
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My latest build is a 12 string and after reading info here, I figured a zero fret would be appropriate for this instrument. Given the tightness and number of strings, it made sense to have the zero fret dictate the string height at the nut end rather than relying on my aging eyes to accomplish a setup. I didn’t give the zero any special treatment other than a slight compensation forward as I do for any nut install. To my ear, this seems to put things right for 1st position cords.

My initial impression is that this is a good idea and was wondering why we don’t see a zero fret implemented more often?


Thanks,
Wade
Author:  old man [ Tue May 01, 2007 8:04 am ]
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Looks good, Wade. I think I'm the only one using a zero fret around here, or the only one who will admit it. Not using one probably has more to do with tradition than anything else. I started because that's the way my old Alvarez was made, and I liked the result. I'm working on #4 and 5 now and all mine have the zero fret.

Ron
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Tue May 01, 2007 8:14 am ]
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Ron,
I'm with you on that. I think I'll try it on my next 6 string build. If I make the nut narrow enough, I could always pull the fret and cut out for a regular nut.
Although I can't see why it wouldn't work out.

I think Colin resently finished a zero fret instrument too.

Here is the whole thing BTW.



Wade
Author:  Dave White [ Tue May 01, 2007 8:24 am ]
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Wade,

Neat work and nice guitar. Roger Bucknall of Fylde guitars has been using the zero fret for 30+ years. Check out what he hs to say about it here. Go to the "technical" page and then "zero fret".
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Tue May 01, 2007 8:35 am ]
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Thanks Dave,
That certainly makes sense to me.
I can't wait to try it..


Wade
Author:  CarltonM [ Wed May 02, 2007 1:55 pm ]
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As I see it, there's one major minus to the zero fret. It's a fret. It'll wear like a fret, which means it will pass its useful life long before a bone nut would. Depending on how heavily the player grips, you might go through several zero frets to one nut. For instance, I start to get wear marks and divots on new frets within a couple of months of playing. As soon as the zero fret starts to wear, much of its intonation advantage is lost.
Author:  old man [ Wed May 02, 2007 2:22 pm ]
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[QUOTE=CarltonM] As I see it, there's one major minus to the zero fret. It's a fret. It'll wear like a fret, which means it will pass its useful life long before a bone nut would. Depending on how heavily the player grips, you might go through several zero frets to one nut. For instance, I start to get wear marks and divots on new frets within a couple of months of playing. As soon as the zero fret starts to wear, much of its intonation advantage is lost.[/QUOTE]


I disagree with this, Carlton. I've got an Alvarez that I've played since 1971 and the zero fret shows nearly zero wear. The string moves very little on that fret with normal playing. It could be changed when a regular refret is due, but I don't think, from my experience, you could wear one enough to cause a problem until every other fret was flush with the FB.

Ron
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Thu May 03, 2007 1:49 am ]
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Carlton,
Thanks for posting your concerns for the Zero fret.
This is what I would like to know.
Why are builders not using zero frets?

So far, with the proper instillation and setup, I see more advantages then not.
Is it just tradition, or its association with "cheaper" guitars, or is there enough of a sound difference to shy away from having one?

Thanks Guys,

Wade
Author:  Dave White [ Thu May 03, 2007 1:56 am ]
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Wade,

I think having read your post here, Tim McKnight started a similar thread on the APM Forum here. There are some interesting views from players and builders there that may help you.

As I build/play lots in dropped tunings, the ability to cut the nut for the bass strings to be higher when dropped to C and below makes sense to me.
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Thu May 03, 2007 6:17 am ]
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Thanks again Dave.. and all,
Tim McKnight's post at APM was very informative.
I can understand for dropped tunings the zero wouldn't work so well (buzzz). But for regular tuning, it could be an option.
For most builders it seems a zero fret is unconventional and not mainstream enough to take a chance on an instrument that you are trying to sell.

Unless someone wants it that way.


Wade

Author:  CarltonM [ Thu May 03, 2007 6:28 am ]
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[QUOTE=old man]
I've got an Alvarez that I've played since 1971 and the zero fret shows nearly zero wear.[/QUOTE]
Ron,

Yeah, for many players it works okay. For heavy grippers like I am though, it wears pretty quickly. Maybe if the zero fret was stainless steel...
Author:  Dave White [ Thu May 03, 2007 6:34 am ]
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[QUOTE=CarltonM] [QUOTE=old man]
I've got an Alvarez that I've played since 1971 and the zero fret shows nearly zero wear.[/QUOTE]
Ron,

Yeah, for many players it works okay. For heavy grippers like I am though, it wears pretty quickly. Maybe if the zero fret was stainless steel... [/QUOTE]

Or maybe if it was electrified to help induce a slightly looser grip
Author:  CarltonM [ Thu May 03, 2007 6:44 am ]
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[QUOTE=Wade S.] Carlton,
Thanks for posting your concerns for the Zero fret.
This is what I would like to know.
Why are builders not using zero frets?

So far, with the proper instillation and setup, I see more advantages then not.
Is it just tradition, or its association with "cheaper" guitars, or is there enough of a sound difference to shy away from having one?[/QUOTE]
Actually, the sound is one of the often-stated advantages of the zero fret, as an open string rests on the same material as when it's fretted. With a standard nut, many say they can hear a difference between open and fretted strings. I'm one of them, but I've never found it to be unpleasant.

I think tradition plays a large part in the use of a nut; however, I also think that if you're building for a wide variety of playing styles a standard nut is the best choice, because of potential wear issues. Also, as Dave mentioned, non-standard tuning is an issue, and it seems like more and more players are using lowered tunings.

It's one of those building choices where neither is wrong. You just have to weigh the pros and cons and decide for yourself.
Author:  CarltonM [ Thu May 03, 2007 6:52 am ]
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[QUOTE=Dave White]

Or maybe if it was electrified to help induce a slightly looser grip [/QUOTE]
It'd only work for me if I use lighter gauge strings, and I don't really like those slinky things. I use a wound third on my electrics, too. Sounds much better!

A too-heavy grip is just a technique quirk that I have. On the other hand, even when using a pick I've never had a need for a pickguard.
Author:  Dave White [ Thu May 03, 2007 6:57 am ]
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Calton,

I meant connecting it to a live current!! Isn't language fun
Author:  CarltonM [ Thu May 03, 2007 7:39 am ]
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[QUOTE=Dave White] Calton,

I meant connecting it to a live current!! Isn't language fun [/QUOTE]
I think that would tighten my grip!

BTW, speaking of language, it's "Carlton," with an "r," not Calton.    Didn't we have this discussion before?
Author:  Dave White [ Thu May 03, 2007 7:44 am ]
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[QUOTE=CarltonM]
BTW, speaking of language, it's "Carlton," with an "r," not Calton.    Didn't we have this discussion before? [/QUOTE]

Carlton,

Sorry Yes - probably See I'm an old man now with a short term memory problem. What was I saying??? Oh yes - you are a case ... no you're not - you're Carlton not Calton Could have been worse - I could have mis-typed it ar Carton. Now where's that edit button gone. . . it was here just a minute ago?
Author:  Dave White [ Thu May 03, 2007 7:45 am ]
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Carlton,

Bye the way - that makes me "one fret short of a zero-fret"

Sorry for the highjack Wade!
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Thu May 03, 2007 8:06 am ]
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Your crackin me up Dave,
I could never mind this kind of hijack.

BTW I can't wait to see what your plans are for your harp guitar! You show me yours and I'll show you myn.
But that's a topic for another day..

Thanks all for the info!

Wade
Author:  Dennis E. [ Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am ]
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Wade, I would love to play that guitar!

Regarding buzzing with dropped tuning ... why would you not just dial in a little more relief in the neck? I think that's why we have adjustable truss rods.

Buzzing that results from lowering the tension of the strings is almost certainly going to be the result of increased movement of the string at the middle of its span, plus the reduced neck relief from the lower string tension.

I'd bet you can avoid the problem entirely by choosing replacement string gauges that maintain the same tension.

Marketing issues aside. I see a lot of advantages to the zero fret design and only one real disadvantage: There's no practical way to execute compensation at the nut. For many of us that's a non-issue.

Author:  Dave White [ Thu May 03, 2007 7:06 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Dennis E.]
Regarding buzzing with dropped tuning ... why would you not just dial in a little more relief in the neck? I think that's why we have adjustable truss rods.

Buzzing that results from lowering the tension of the strings is almost certainly going to be the result of increased movement of the string at the middle of its span, plus the reduced neck relief from the lower string tension.

I'd bet you can avoid the problem entirely by choosing replacement string gauges that maintain the same tension.

Marketing issues aside. I see a lot of advantages to the zero fret design and only one real disadvantage: There's no practical way to execute compensation at the nut. For many of us that's a non-issue.

[/QUOTE]

Dennis,

Altering the neck relief is going to impact all six strings whereas the higher action is only really needed on the sixth. By choosing the height of the zero fret and profiling it accordingly you could probably do the same sort of string height adjustment that is done in cutting the nut slots - it would be trickier though.

You could also do a zero fret for each string and do the equivalent of nut compensation - again tricky to execute and it might look a bit odd. Roger Bucknall argues (see the link I posted above) that the zero fret does away with the need for nut compensation anyway due to the way the strings are stopped.

In the end as others here have said I think it is down to personal taste and beliefs. Some like an even sound of fretted and open strings. I like the sound of open strigs in a nut and make sure I play as many as possible - which is why I use alternate tunings
Author:  Colin S [ Thu May 03, 2007 8:11 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Dennis E.] Wade, I would love to play that guitar!

Regarding buzzing with dropped tuning ... why would you not just dial in a little more relief in the neck? I think that's why we have adjustable truss rods.

Buzzing that results from lowering the tension of the strings is almost certainly going to be the result of increased movement of the string at the middle of its span, plus the reduced neck relief from the lower string tension.

I'd bet you can avoid the problem entirely by choosing replacement string gauges that maintain the same tension.

Marketing issues aside. I see a lot of advantages to the zero fret design and only one real disadvantage: There's no practical way to execute compensation at the nut. For many of us that's a non-issue.

[/QUOTE]

Using a dedicated guitar with balanced string gauges for dropped tunings is something I've been advocating on the forum since I was quite a young lad. I have two guitars just for dropped tunings. No lowering of tension, so no buzzing. I've just got to glue the bridge on a new one for DADGad, so I can change the strings on my old DADGad guitar for a set just for Drop C tuning. Adjusting the truss rod is not the answer, the correct strings are.

Colin
Author:  Matt Gage [ Fri May 04, 2007 10:15 pm ]
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Wade, nice looking guitar.

are you installing a transducer under the saddle as well?

Matt
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Sat May 05, 2007 3:06 am ]
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Hi Matt,
I wanted to install an under saddle but the customer thought the two passive pickups would be enough.
It plays alot easyer than I thought it would. I think an acoustic small body is in order for the next 12 string.
So many to build but not enough time.

Wade
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