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Rosette question
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=11957		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  jonhfry [ Thu May 10, 2007 1:02 am ]
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I guess some of this has been discussed recently, but I can't find the answers in the archive.


I am a fan of the wood rosettes. I have joined 3 tops now and am slowly imprvoing the appearances of my rosettes with each one.


I am approaching building with the idea of doing everything I can by hand and without using any premade parts, if possible. I know LMI and others sell premade wood rosettes, but out of the love of torturing myself and turning my first build into a long drawn out process I have insisted on cutting them out myself.


My method has been to take a fly cutter, and cut into a small but thick billet as deep as I can. Then resaw the piece to a smaller thickness and finaaly cut it out free hand with the band-saw. My last one looks real nice, but there has to be a more precise method. What do those of you who make the whole rosette do? And what glue is best?

Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu May 10, 2007 1:25 am ]
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Hesh

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but what kind of double-stick tape do you use?  Strong enough to hold the work, but with enough release to come off easily.  I was using some carpet double stick, but it is really gooey and is tough to get off.  Maybe it's too old or I need a cheaper brand with lower adherance. I was not using for rosettes, but the problem is the same.
Author:  Wade Sylvester [ Thu May 10, 2007 1:48 am ]
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Hi John,
I use a fly cutter also.
Although you will find that there are many ways to make and install a rosette, if your tool of choice is the fly cutter, I have a few things that work for me.
Grind your own cutter bits. Always sharpen your tools before a cut. Also, be sure your drill press table is set flat.
I made a cutter that is a little over the width of two purfling strips. Get your top ready and a thin piece of the wood you intend to use for the rosette. As Hesh suggested and as I do, double sticky tape this rosette wood to some piece of ply. What I do is make a cut to the proper depth into the top for the outside diam. Then leaving the fly cutter set to that cut, I cut the rosette material. Then I set to the inside diam. And again, cut the top then the rosette. You still need to cut the rest of the trough in the top, but this gives you a near perfect fit for your rosette surrounded by two purflings both inner and outer.

Waddy, Hesh, I use the scotch brand regular stuff. It's not very wide but holds up to anything I have used it for.

Wade
Author:  Anthony Z [ Thu May 10, 2007 2:01 am ]
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Hesh the reason you couldn't find it is that your instructions were buried in a thread. Here is a cut and paste that I saved.

Hesh Rosette Tutorial
My first step is to book match two pieces of interesting and matching zoot using the tape method to join the plates.

Next I use Stew-mac's router base, a Dremel, and their circle cutter with sprial down cut bits. My Dremel works great for me and I have used it to install trim as narrow as .010 with no gaps. Others like laminate trimmers and I agree that they are better but again my Dremel works great for me.

I drill a 3/16" hole (not sure, it is the size that Stew-Mac tells you to use for their circle cutter) in the center of the rosette blank. Then I have a bench with a 3/16" hole already in it that I use for making rosettes.

I take the blank and use double sided tape on the entire bottom of it, insert the circle cutter's pin, and lower the blank and pin onto the bench inserting the pin firmly in the hole.

Measuring from the center of the pin I mark the size of rosette that I want to cut out with the outer limit and inner limit. My marks and all first cuts are made over the center seam of the rosette blank where the fret board will hide when finished. BTW I thickness sand my rosette blanks to about .070 - .065ish. This is close to the thickness of the commercial b/w/b trim that is available so when I weight the entire stack down for installation the weights tend to hit the rosette and the trim all at once.

To cut out the rosette I make multiple passes, probably 3-4 to go through the .070 rosette.

When I have cut through and have nice table dust now showing...... I remove the Stew-Mac circle cutter, Dremel, etc. and the center pin. Then I use a pallet knife and lift the excess material, then the rosette, and then the center circle to save for later. BTW never trace the center circle from the rosette onto the guitar top to get the size of the rosette. The cutter bit will throw this off - don't as me how I know this..... The double sided tape can be carefully removed now.

Next I mark and drill where the center of the sound hole will be on the top and again make a 3/16" hole in the guitar top. I put the top on the bench with the pin in the hole in the bench and then clamp the top around the edges in two places. No double stick tape is used for the top.

I make my marks that match the rosette size and trim width again along the center seam of the guitar top above the sound hole where the fret board will cover it up. I also over lay the rosette to check that I have not measured incorrectly. Then with the circle cutter I make light passes for the inside cut of the channel getting deeper with multiple passes until I am almost .060 deep.

From this point on I just expand the channel outward with multiple passes a small bit at a time with out ever changing the depth again. I do lift the circle cutter completely off and vacuum up the dust frequently in as much as the dust alone can change the .060 depth that I want to maintain. For each ever expanding pass I try to never take off more material then 1/3 the diameter of the cutter bit. I also go slow taking great care to never completely stop. If it starts to take more "push" I slow down and let the cutter do the work.

When the channel is close I start trial fitting the trim and the rosette and then make very small additional passes until it all fits nicely into place. You also want to take the rosette at the top seam where it will not show and cut about a 1/4" segment out of it so that it can expand and contract if need be.

When the trim and the rosette will fit with very little pressure into place I then paint up the channel and sides liberally with Titebond. This is for an all wood rosette mind you. I don't have to worry about sealing the top around the rosette for just Titebond. Others like to use CA, seal the top with shellac, and flood the installed rosette. I am sure this works fine too but I like Titebond for all wood rosettes.

Now you have to work fast because the Titebond will start to swell the channel (which I want to happen BTW) and the parts will fit tighter and tighter until they may not fit at all. Typically I have to firmly press it all into position and the glue gets every where but this is what I want, lots of squeeze out.

Once it is all pressed into place I let it dry under waxed paper, a board, and a couple of bricks for 30 minutes or so. Then before it is completely dry I run it through the last saved setting on my thickness sander that I final thicknessed the top with. The proud rosette and trim are leveled in nearly one pass, the top is not thinned any additional amount, and the dust from the thicknessing fills any gaps and sticks to the tacky, not completely dry Titebond all in one felled swoop.

Now you are done and can return the top with installed rosette to the bench and reinstall the pin and use the circle cutter to cut out the sound hole. I have cut out the sound hole before thickness sanding by mistake but it did not make any difference.
Author:  Anthony Z [ Thu May 10, 2007 2:07 am ]
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Waddy I use the thin double sided tape that HomeDepot sells. Sorry I don't recall the brand name.

Here's a tip that I use for double side taping where I am concerned about a gooey mess or damaging the piece or substrate. Put a wide strip of white masking tape down on the substrate and your spruce top then a piece of double side tape down between the masking tape strips. Put the double sided tape on top of one of the masking tape strips and adhere the spruce top to the substrate.

When you go to remove the workpiece use a pallet knife and in all likelihood you'll end up pulling one of the masking tape strips up of either the substrate or the spruce top. No gooey mess or damage to the spruce or the substrate.
Author:  LanceK [ Thu May 10, 2007 2:13 am ]
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I use carpet tape too and have found it real hard to remove the ring, BUT just recently I found a tip somewhere that said to moisten the tape with Naptha after your done and it will let up easier. So, for my next, I plan to shoot a little naptha under the ring with a pipette..
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu May 10, 2007 2:16 am ]
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[QUOTE=Anthony Z]Waddy I use the thin double sided tape that HomeDepot sells. Sorry I don't recall the brand name.



Here's a tip that I use for double side taping where I am concerned about a gooey mess or damaging the piece or substrate. Put a wide strip of white masking tape down on the substrate and your spruce top then a piece of double side tape down between the masking tape strips. Put the double sided tape on top of one of the masking tape strips and adhere the spruce top to the substrate.



When you go to remove the workpiece use a pallet knife and in all likelihood you'll end up pulling one of the masking tape strips up of either the substrate or the spruce top. No gooey mess or damage to the spruce or the substrate.[/QUOTE]

Thanks!  That sounds like good advice.  The stuff I have is old, and is very high tack.  Probably too much for wood, but is good for plane irons, scrapers etc. when honing and sanding down to level.
Author:  John How [ Thu May 10, 2007 2:19 am ]
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I use quite a bit of carpet tape for various jigs and things and I prefer the cheap stuff from Ace hardware. The nylon weave stuff is generally more sticky and not suitable for my needs. I prefer the thin plastic variety that doesn't have quit the holding power of the nylon weave.
Author:  Pwoolson [ Thu May 10, 2007 3:04 am ]
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You can "kill" the tack by sticking it to your jeans first. It will pull off the fine fibers of the material and that will cut the tack a great deal.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Thu May 10, 2007 3:21 am ]
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I simply CA the pieces to a piece of veneer, then cut the ring out using the circle cutter - I leave the whole thig thick, say 1/8. Then once cut out, I disc sadn the backing veneer off, leaving the ring. I install it thick, tehn thcikness sand it down. i also now do this while the top is over its final thickeness as well - way easier to level in the sander, then once the rosette is in, thickness the top to its final dimenision.
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Thu May 10, 2007 5:02 am ]
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re: Double-stick tape. I use golf grip tape that I get from Golfsmith. It holds very well and is relatively easy to get off.
Author:  Bob Long [ Thu May 10, 2007 6:49 am ]
Post subject: 
John, The way I do my wood rosettes is really simple and it works just as well for installing segmented rosettes.

I thin the material to around .070 then mark it with a compass or a template. Then I just cut it out with a bandsaw, and spindle sand till the line is gone and it fits in the channel. (It doesn't have to be tight it just has to be close) Sand this level. Then cut two more passes for the inside and outside purfling lines.

Here you can see the two passes for the purf have cut a little of the rosette and a little of the top to cover the sloppy fit we did putting in the wooden rosette sections.

I hope this makes sense, It's low tech, it's quick and easy, and it's always nice and tight.
Here is it when it's done...


Long
Author:  jonhfry [ Thu May 10, 2007 9:15 am ]
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BOB,


Just so I understand, do you make the 2 more passes for the purf lines after you have glued and dried in the wooden part?


I think this is what I was looking for, even if I did not ask it like that.


My first top, the rosette just sucks and is going to be routed out and redone, the second and third tops have some pretty nice looking rosettes, but I did not put in a purf line so it kinda looks awkward. Next shop night I have I am going to try cutting out a small line outside and inside the rosette and install the purf I just got from LMI.


 
Author:  Bob Long [ Thu May 10, 2007 12:29 pm ]
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[QUOTE=jonhfry]

BOB,


Just so I understand, do you make the 2 more passes for the purf lines after you have glued and dried in the wooden part?


I think this is what I was looking for, even if I did not ask it like that.


My first top, the rosette just sucks and is going to be routed out and redone, the second and third tops have some pretty nice looking rosettes, but I did not put in a purf line so it kinda looks awkward. Next shop night I have I am going to try cutting out a small line outside and inside the rosette and install the purf I just got from LMI.


[/QUOTE]

That's right John, I do one pass for the inside and one pass for the outside. What I've been using lately is a 1/8" bit (.125") which is just right for 2 .060" bwb purfs. (Or any other combination of .120" of purf.

Long

Author:  rich altieri [ Thu May 10, 2007 1:58 pm ]
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Just received new LMII catalog and they show a new template for circle cutting and rosettes that attaches to a plunge router. Under $25 and looked interesting. Anyone try it yet??
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Thu May 10, 2007 6:11 pm ]
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I do what Bob does but with a fly cutter.
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Fri May 11, 2007 12:04 am ]
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that circle cutting base hase been sold by the woodworking stores for years, and at a cheaper price i believe.
Author:  jonhfry [ Fri May 11, 2007 7:00 am ]
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hesh, 


Agree on the scarey fly cutter thing. Don't ask me how I know to always make sure the blade is tightened,Confused, but my cutter did not throw it, think it has a safety or something. I have a table top press and it does not wobble too much. I am having a hard time just keeping the press table flat and level.
Author:  Anthony Z [ Fri May 11, 2007 9:32 am ]
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I've got a simple jig for checking the level of my drill press table. It's a 1/4" bolt the fits through the end of a scrap piece of plywood. Through the other end is another shorter 1/4" bolt with a nut. Chuck the longer bolt into the drill press and set your table height to a whisker under the length of the bolt on the other end of the ply and manually rotate the chuck. It'll tell you exactly how far off your table is.
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