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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 11:55 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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First name: Jim
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To all the flamenco builders -

How much extra relief do you add on the bass side of a flamenco fretboard? About the same as a classical? Or more, to account for the lower overall action?

Jim


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 5:17 pm 
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It is looking good Jim. I add the same relief as a classical, just lower as the entire range is lower action. Note that I only add relief from around the 10th- 12th fret to the sound hole on the bass side of the fingerboard.

Closer to the head there is no additional relief although I have seen others that relieve more of the length of their bass side of the fingerboard but for me because I figure that the middle of the string length vibrates the most that there is the area where I start the relief.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:37 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Jim,tell us some more about the guitar will ya?

as for me, i feel that my flamencos have improved a great deal ever since i read an article by R.E Brune called "8 concerns of highly successful guitar makers".
in that article he talks in depth about the neck and ways of setting it up.
my latest couple of flamencos borrowed a lot from that article and also from Brune's Barbero plan.
and i feel that as a result my latest are my finest.

my fingerboard taper goes from 6.5mm to 5mm on the treble side and 6.25+- to 5mm on the bass side.
its a very small difference but i find that it works well.
my favorite set up is also includes a tiny amount of back bow to the neck(negative relief) so that when the guitar is strung the neck straightens up and i end up with no relief as I personally find the "controlled buzzing" desirable.

Udi.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 11:35 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:44 am
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Location: Newark, DE
First name: Jim
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Thanks, Shawn and Udi. I'll go back and check out R. E. Brune's article again.

I'm building 2 right now, both based on the GAL Reyes plan by Tom Blackshear. One is for me and one for a friend who is basically covering my costs. These are my first flamenco's, after 2 finished classicals. (The classicals are based on the GAL Rodriguez plan, also by Tom Blackshear. I owe Mr. Blackshear big time!)

The guitars are both Alaskan Yellow Cedar, which I got from Kevin Hall. The tops are both from Ed Dicks - this one is Englemann and the other is Sitka. I'd like to try Shane's Lutz on future ones. Necks are Cedrela. Ebony bindings, BRW bridge and headplate. I still need to detail the headstock, so no pictures of that yet. Finish will be french Polish. Aside from the different top material, the two guitars are basically identical.

I don't know any flamenco technique, so, as with my classicals, I'm going to have a tough time telling if they came out right!

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 3:21 am 
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The characteristic sound you will be looking for is alot of initial volume at the first attack but then not alot of sustain remaining as that is what would make a flamenco sound muddy. The more "dry" and explosive the initial attack is, the more that a flamenco player will like it.

Having said that, for your tops how did you treat the thickness differently between the Englemann and the Sitka? While each can vary, in general the Sitka top will be heavier but because of greater stiffness be able to be thinned more so the weight should come out very close to an Englemann top that is left thicker.

For the one you have pictured above that is bound, have you tapped in the area of the bridge and listened to the sound coming out the soundhole? You should be able to feel the air moving well and get a sense of its all around resonance.

It is not so much a certain pitch as it is how focused the sound is and whether the overtones you are hearing from the sound are balanced or mostly high partials. It is all subjective but can be an indicator as to whether the top is still too thick or whether it can stand more thinning.

The Reyes plan is a good one but for me my target as far as a flamenco builder goes is Barbero or for an earlier model Santos Hernandez but you cant go wrong with Reyes.

If you play and want to learn Flamenco, it is really fun and much more tolerant than most traditional classical circles. I play classical mostly but take flamenco lessons from a flamenco master.

A flamenco lesson (at least the ones I take) are very interesting in that it is not about learning Sor or Tarrega and the typical classical repetoire but rather Flamenco has very stylized forms (tempo, cadence, length, etc) that frame much of the music but they are really the framework within which the improvisional performance of flamenco takes place.

When I go for a lesson, I do not sit playing from a book, instead I am in the middle of the flamenco group as most of flamenco has little to do with the individual performer and more about the interplay of the group and how everyone feeds off the other performers emotion and energy.

Think of the dancer as the conductor that sets the pace. The beat starts the palmas, the handclaps that set the beat. Next the guitar takes the rhythm of the song and adds chords and melody lines to create the foundation of the sound.

The singer gets inspired by the guitarist and sings his or her plaintive song on top of or in counterpoint to the guitar which then creates an emotional response in the dancer that adds punctuation to the lines created by the singer and guitarist.

Bystanders will add their calls of encouragement to the group spurring them on to greater swells of sound and feeling. Everyone can participate in the experience and can augment the beats by adding their own handclaps or drumbeats. The cajon is a wooden box that is used as a drum and is something that obviously started as someone using whatever resonant surface was handy to add their beat.

As you are starting out the guitar is all about accompaniment but as guitarist progress they become more daring and will take their turn by adding lines and runs that show the virtuosity of the player and the passion that they are adding into the mix. Some nights everyones energy will be low qand other times one persons attitude and emotion take an entire group to a place musically that there did not forsee. That sense of the moment, the spirit and emotion is called the "duende".

I know a number of classical builders that found flamenco so seductive and the players far less picky that the now build almost exclusively flamenco guitars. Among them are Eugene Clark, Les Stansell, Lester DeVoe and others. For me, for every 7 classical I build, I am building 3 flamencos.

Even some of the classicals I build are "blancas". Jose Romanillos whose classicals I favor really likes the sound of a blanca classical as that is what alot of Torres guitars were.

In Torres day there was no such thing as a flamenco guitar, just guitars built with more expensive or less expensive woods. Because Cypress was so plentiful and a weed tree, many Torres guitars were Cypress. Today Cypress is thought of as a flamenco.

It is only in the 20th century with the advent of the flamenco guitar as a solo instrument with the virtuosity of players such as Richardo Nino, Sabicas, Montoya, Paco De Lucia and others that the form of the guitar changed to reduce the sustain so that runs would not sound muddy. That change lead to the elimination of the bottom diagonal cross braces, building much thinner, action so low that buzzing is inevitable and other things we associate today with a flamenco guitar but it all started as the same guitar as Torres built.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:59 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Last Name: Kirby
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Thanks Shawn - I can't answer the question about difference in thinning the two tops too well. I'm going to start doing objective bending tests this summer, but didn't do it yet for these. They were both thin - way thinner than my two classicals so far. I would guess that the Englemann top came out less stiff as I thicknessed them about the same. I didn't really know what I was shooting for (one of the reasons for doing two side by side).

One of these days I'm going to start proselytizing for standardization of testing methods - everyone now seems to have numbers that are self consistent for their own work, but are difficult to communicate to others because the tests are done differently. That would kill us in the engineering world. (and you too, perhaps literally!)

The one pictured pumps a pretty good puff of air through the soundhole when thumped at the bridge location. The thump seems to be a pretty well-defined note, perhaps too low relative to the back's main tone.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:38 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:34 pm
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Location: Israel
Jim,
who is Kevin Hall? i bought my yellow cedar sets from LMI and from Dan Maignard and am looking for more state-side distributers since shipping from canada to Israel is outrageously expensive.

also, what bridge height does Mr. Blackshear call for on the Reyes plan?
i was just looking at it and was thinking about ordering myself one.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:38 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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The Brune' Barbero plan is great !!
I've made many guitars from this blueprint and tried some of the others but always come back to Barbero !
Go with all the demensions on the plan (except the different back outline) and you'll have a killer
" Flammer"
www.collinsguitars.com

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 8:07 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:44 am
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Location: Newark, DE
First name: Jim
Last Name: Kirby
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Udi - The bridge is about 7mm high, with a saddle height on the bass side about 9.5mm. Blackshear says the neck should be set forward about 2mm, and put a little dome under the bridge. I used the solera for my Rodriguez plan, as the plans are not that much different except the Reyes is flatter across the tail and about an inch shorter as a result. I needed to taper the fretboard about 1mm over it's length.

Kevin Hall lives way up in Ontario somewhere, so no help there in not shipping from Canada.


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Jim Kirby
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 8:20 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

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Location: Israel
Mike,
i asked this question a week ago on a thread started by Claire but i guess you didnt see it.
you mentioned there that you do not use a negative neck angle and instead arch your tops.
how do you arch the top? do you pre radius the braces? or do ou just force them into a slightly hollowed solera and then let the m spring back?
where do you put the arch? is it at th bridge? all over the top? also, what bridge height do you shoot for on a flamenco?


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