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Greven on Lutz
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=12104		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Fri May 18, 2007 1:41 pm ]
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I know that many of you frequent the Acoustic Players Forum. I didn't until Tim McKnight suggested I look in on some of the stuff that was being said about a couple of John Greven's recent completions (I heard some news from a couple of others over the past while also). A 00 Lutz/Mahogany and a 000 Lutz/BRW. The guys over there that played them said great things about them. My initial thoughts were, well, they're Greven's, they got to be good anyway! So while I was looking in at the APF I got an e-mail from John looking for a few more sets (just weird how that happens ). After a bit of discussion about a few things he sent me this assessment of the wood combos and the recent guitars:

"I have found that the combo of your tops (the ones with excellent clear ping tone and good stiffness regardless of degree of quarter or cosmetics) coupled with the outstanding Adirondack brace stock from Old Standard in Fulton, MO is head and shoulders above any other guitar sounds in the modern world. I have played thousands of new guitars over the years and have never heard any that sound like mine with this top and top bracing. The closest thing to my ear are the exceptionally fine early to mid-1930s Martin vintage guitars. Even here, the new guitar has the edge on tone quality with a greater complexity and character than the more fundamental tone of the early Martins. Lutz does rock.

John"


Wow, I thought that was a pretty good endorsement indeed! But even better, I just got off the phone with John and he said that just believing the words isn't enough....that little 00 that is in on the road in Texas will be making it's way up here in the next week or so! He even said that I could 'look under the hood'. "No secrets" he says "just typical vintage Martin bracing". I will let you know when it arrives and I and few of my friends give it a test drive before I send it back to him.

I am stoked yet again!

Shane
Author:  John How [ Fri May 18, 2007 2:15 pm ]
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Very cool Shane, that was one of the guys I mentioned was raving about your wood when I asked you to send me a few the other day. So don't go giving away all your best stuff to Mr Greven now!!!

Keep a few sets for the rest of us mortals
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri May 18, 2007 3:42 pm ]
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That is really outstanding Shane.  It's really got to make you proud of the quality of wood you are providing out there.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Fri May 18, 2007 4:25 pm ]
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So, remind us... when are you getting more lutz in?   
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Fri May 18, 2007 5:02 pm ]
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[QUOTE=John How] Very cool Shane, that was one of the guys I mentioned was raving about your wood when I asked you to send me a few the other day. So don't go giving away all your best stuff to Mr Greven now!!!

Keep a few sets for the rest of us mortals [/QUOTE]

Hey John I have your sets together and will be filling all of the orders outstanding for mailing on Tuesday (Monday is Holiday here, the birthday of the late Queen Victoria). As for competition from John Greven, there really isn't much (except Todd Stock!), he prefers structure over appearance and takes lower grade sets. As noted in the quote, he is not even too concerned about being bang on quarter (my hand split billets run off quarter at the outer edges but not by too much). Most of his guitars are bursted so he can hide a lot. When I talked to him today he told me that his tops are a bit thicker but his braces are very light. So he likes light and stiff woods for the tops and prefers adi brace stock but is going to try some Lutz that I send him and he said that he will let me know how it compares.

Thanks

Shane
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Fri May 18, 2007 5:26 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
So, remind us... when are you getting more lutz in?    [/QUOTE]

Brock,

I am glad you brought this up!! I have a license to harvest but it expires in August. Last year I bought some logs and harvested a couple. Most of my production though was from those purchased logs as they were wonderful! I usually get about 700 sets from the logs I harvest or puchase. I have a tentative deal in the works to purchase logs from a local company on an ongoing basis, and they have tenure from the very same place where my purchased logs were harvested, but it makes me nervous not being in control of my supply of wood. Most of this wonderful spruce is slated for export, primarily to SE Asia. I am not certain what it is used for there but some likely goes to instruments but most to other things. Many of the companies here use these big logs as bargaining power for large volumes of lower grade logs, we are talking frieghter loads here, thousands of truck loads! So it is difficult to convince these companies to support local value added projects. Compounding the problem is a government that tailors legislation to the large logging companies so they squeeze the low volume high quality guys out. Anyway, my license had an extension clause in it that would allow me to harvest until about 2013 or 2014. I have been told that Forestry will not allow for that extension. I plan on making application for extension in the next week or two and if what I hear is true and it is rejected, I am hoping to receive letters of support from you all, and some of my other customers from around the world, to show this government that this wood has a better purpose that pulp and 2x4's and they really need to allow for increased value added opportunities. Almost all of this wood resides on public lands that are stewarded by the Forests Ministry so they can indeed set legislation and policy to support the development of these types of industries. Larry Stamm has been waging this battle for a while but to be successful we really need to show the decision makers that there is not just a desire to have access to this wood, there is a NEED! I truly believe that our use of this wood is a noble extension that honours the life of these ancient giants. You need to know we are not alone in this. I have a friend that manufactires wooden aircraft components and he is now building fencing materials and pallets in between the rare times when he can get sutable logs. Sorry to be long winded, but I feel a heated battle coming on and I am hoping to find support in our community!

Even still, I will be continuing, as Tony Karol so aptly states "Nothing is impossible, it just costs more". I am hoping that we can be success in patitioning the decision makers so that it dosen't cost too much more!

Thanks

Shane

Oh Ya!! To answer your question, I have a new tree under application right now. No issue appearantly in getting the tree, just waiting for the paperwork, they say another week or so. I can't promise what the tree holds in store, I have a series of things I look for when selecting trees but you never really know what you have until some sets are cut, dried and sanded! Every step towards the finish though gives you a stronger sense of what you have. I will be sure to post progress once I get started. It has been an INCREDIBLY long winter here. I know of another grove of trees that we are in talks about but there is still too much snow to look at them again. Soon though!

Shane
Author:  Kim [ Fri May 18, 2007 10:48 pm ]
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Who can make a wood chip sing?

Good luck Shane, we all dearly rely upon you winning the good fight.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Dave White [ Sat May 19, 2007 12:34 am ]
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Shane,

Congrats yet again and deserved recognition for great wood. John Greven is right - Lutz rocks.

Count me in as well for any help with the Canadian Government lobbying on your behalf.

As for bracing I've used the Lutz bracing you sent on the two Weissenborn builds and on Jack the Lad. I haven't seen any adirondack bracing and can't comment on how it compares but your Lutz is indestinguishable from the Euro I've been using up to now for bracing and is fabulous stuff. It's what I'll be using on my instruments for bracing from here on. John Greven will love it I'm sure.
Author:  Anthony Z [ Sat May 19, 2007 12:58 am ]
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[QUOTE=ToddStock] Shane:
I'm there for you - please PM me with address and the name of the appropriate Forestry Service manager, or if Lance does not mind, post it in this thread.

Letters take time to line up (DAMHIKT), and you'll want to generate a 'talking points' outline so that key points are addressed in the letters of support (e.g., benefit to Canadian economy; world-class reputation for Canadian forest products; best use of scarce resources; low environmental impact of harvest methods, etc.); happy to help you out with an early draft.
Todd[/QUOTE]

Shane you can count me in to send a letter. Picking up on Todd's thoughts, I'd add how the use of spruce contributes to the arts. Something I believe our government strongly supports. I very much doubt that many of our government officials are even aware that spruce or Lutz spruce is used in building guitars. Moreover, that the big logging companies do not support the use of spruce in art for guitar building.
Author:  swainsong [ Sat May 19, 2007 3:16 am ]
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Hi Shane,

I'm there for you too when the time comes to begin a letter writing campaign. Unfortunately I disagree that the government supports the arts enough, unless they see votes in it for them. But your entrepreneurial endeavor is a viable business plan - you should qualify for some kind of grant support from either the provincial or federal government (or both) especially now that you've established the foundation and market demand for your products.

Greg
Author:  Dave Anderson [ Sat May 19, 2007 3:46 am ]
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That makes me cringe when I here all that wonderful Lutz
spruce being cut into 2 by 4's. You can count on a letter or letters from me Shane! Good Luck with your extension .I hope they give it to ya! And congrats on great recognition from John Greven!
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sat May 19, 2007 3:48 am ]
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Shane,
I'll also write a letter for you. I've tested several of the your tops and they are amazing, particularly in the cross grain direction.
Stash some aside for me please.
Author:  BruceH [ Sat May 19, 2007 3:52 am ]
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I'll send a letter too, Shane. Just let me know when and where to send it.
Author:  John Mayes [ Sat May 19, 2007 5:07 am ]
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Lutz is my favorite topwood without question.

Author:  Shane Neifer [ Sat May 19, 2007 9:33 am ]
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Thanks for the kind words and support you all. I will be working on a draft document for presentation in the next couple of weeks. What I will be hoping to do is be able to attach as many seperate letters of support for better access to this resource for our industry as I can get. Todd, I will take you up on your offer to help out a bit on this. I do presentations a lot for my day job and they include lots of in depth research but it is ALWAYS great to have an extra set of eyes to shed a perspective that being too close can't see. I am going to start to pull a bunch of stuff together this for proposal. When I am getting things ready to go I will start another thread, after I ok it with Lance and Brock (Am I moving in to the 'no politics' arena here... might be, so I will seek permission first) and will outline the 'talking points' that Todd has eluded to.

Thanks again all!

Shane
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sat May 19, 2007 9:50 am ]
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Count me in on any help you need Shane !!!

I'm glad i got alot of tops from you last year !
Plus I think your brace stock is the best !
I have Adi -your's is just as good or better because of it's weight to stiffness ratio !!!!


Mike Collinswww.collinsguitars.com
Author:  Rod True [ Sat May 19, 2007 11:22 am ]
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Shane, I think I'll be needing to get me some more firewood soon, so I think the best fire wood for me must be up in Terrace eh?

I'll give you all that quarter sawn stuff (leaves klinkers in the stove so it's really no good ) and just take the rest.

Put me on the list for letter sending.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Sat May 19, 2007 1:09 pm ]
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Just wanted to chime in with my support for what you're doing, Shane. I'll keep my eye out for your posts on this subject and hope to be able to support your efforts.

Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat May 19, 2007 2:17 pm ]
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Don't know of those of us who are just starting can help, but sure am willing to if I can.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Sat May 19, 2007 3:22 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Rod True] Shane, I think I'll be needing to get me some more firewood soon, so I think the best fire wood for me must be up in Terrace eh?

I'll give you all that quarter sawn stuff (leaves klinkers in the stove so it's really no good ) and just take the rest.

Put me on the list for letter sending. [/QUOTE]

Man!! You really don't want to see what we heat the shop with in the winter! I almost cry!! Too bad more people aren't closer to me! I do take a lot of it and resaw it into small box pieces for a friend of mine that does these boxes for the tourist trade in Prince Rupert, smoked salmon in a nice spruce and cedar box with some cool native art on the top. Makes me feel better knowing that the wood is being used even further! I actually spent three hours cutting more up for him today.
Author:  Anthony Z [ Sat May 19, 2007 4:21 pm ]
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Ah heck Shane, it's Canadian politics so it should be ok

Look forward to seeing the first cut!
Author:  bob_connor [ Sat May 19, 2007 5:06 pm ]
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AIf there's anything Dave and I can do just let us know Shane.

Cheers
Author:  TonyKarol [ Sun May 20, 2007 1:45 am ]
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You can add my name to the list as well Shane ... anything to help out, we NEED this stuff, and where better to get it from than our OWN back yard.
Author:  Dave Rector [ Sun May 20, 2007 3:19 am ]
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Shane, count me in for support as well. Let me know what you need and when you need it and I'll do whatever I can. We need to do everything we can to keep that beautiful lutz in the supply chain.
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